Talk:List of drag queens/Archive 1

Archive 1

Closed deletion listing

This article was listed for deletion on 10 April, 2005. The discussion was closed with the result of keep. This article will not be deleted. You can view the discussion, which is no longer live: Wikipedia:Votes_for_deletion/List of Drag Queens. --Tony Sidaway|Talk 23:23, 23 Apr 2005 (UTC)

categories

Hi -- I had changed this list from category:Lists of people to the three cats: "Lists of people by occupation", "...by sexuality" and "...by activity", per Wikipedia:Categories, lists, and series boxes ("Categories should be on major topics that are likely to be useful to someone reading the article.") and trying to diffuse the unwieldy "Lists of people" category. User:Otto4711 reverted because "removing sexuality cat, not everyone on the list is of the same sexuality."

1. I don't believe the category suggests that everyone is of the same sexuality (or even what the sexuality would be), but I do think it's "useful to someone reading the article." Many (most?) drag queens are either gay or trans, categories included within "lists of people by sexuality."
2. Second, if one were to apply the "all members fit" criteria for the category, then "... by occupation" doesn't belong either.

Thoughts? Suggestions for better classification that is more succinct than the three currently listed? I did all three to try to capture the range of reasons/identities, and I think stripping "by occupation" and "by sexuality", and leaving only "by activity" makes this list unnecessarily difficult to find, and is not in keeping with the breadth of the LGBT categories treatment of transgender. Cross-posted on User talk:Otto4711 page. --LQ 13:45, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

Unnecessary

We already have Category:Drag queens - why do we need this. All entries here have wikipedia articles. Further, this list is unsourced and thus arguably violates BLP. A category doesn't have that problem.--Doc^g 15:29, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

• Honestly I'm losing the will to care. Personally I find the list handy and I don't think it hurts anything (which I realize would not be valid arguments at an AFD) but I do get a little weary of every Mom, Chick and Mary adding their local queens to the list only to be reverted. I also don't think it's necessary to have eleventy-hundred footnotes when the sourcing identifying the person as a drag queen is in the linked article. Otto4711 (talk) 16:57, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

Sourcing BLP lists from the linked article is dodgy - and increasingly disapproved. The problem is that the linked article may change or have its claim disputed and no-one will know that the claim is also being published here. Negative or potentially negative claims should have the sourcing right beside them, so that if it isn't there, the claim can be instantly removed. Whereas someone browsing this article can't immediately see if any claim is unreferenced - and they'll not check the linked article unless suspicious. We really can't make claims about people on one article and say "the verification is elsewhere". The huge advantage of categorises is that catagorisation is placed on the article itself - and it's much easier to spot if there's not verification. Plus, the categorisation is noticed by people who tend to know something about the subject and will spot unfairness. That's more unlikely with people reading a list.--Doc^g 17:09, 5 December 2007 (UTC)

File:Julian Eltinge (in drag and not).jpg Nominated for Deletion

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wrong link

The name Gemma Jones refers to two different people--to a drag performer and to a British actress. Currently, it links to the actress, who is not, in fact. a drag queen. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.146.45.110 (talk • contribs) 21:04, 23 March 2007 (UTC)

Size of images

My formatting of the article's largest image, in accordance with Wikipedia's manual of Style, has just been reverted, with the edit summary "messes up the size[". We now have an image as large as 59Kb, at 300px × 630px, overwhelming the article, especially for people using smaller monitors/ low resolution. Please remember that not everyone uses the same set up that you do; and that the MoS is written to account for this. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 17:23, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Um - hunh?

First, the image is 25K, 180 x 378 px. here is the one that shows up on my screen - which, I realize, may not be exactly the same as everyone elses.

Second, MOS:IMAGE says nothing about "upright" in the image guidelines.

Third, using "upright" changes the thumbnail size considerably, and using it on only one image makes that one different from all the rest.

Fourth, there's already more white-space between the table and the images (at least on my screen) than I'm comfortable with. I've played with that some (in my userspace) and tried to come up with something that was general enough and looked reasonable.

I'm willing to hear, though, why others might think the "upright" is necessary. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 17:39, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

FWIW, I personally have my images set to the largest possible. On this article, and all others that use tables and images like this the images simply cover portions of the table as if the photo were plopped on top. It's never mattered that much but it would be nice to fix it in some way on this and our other LGBT lists. To me, it would also be nice if the photos had some informative caption. "Drag queen XX was the first to use a wig as a weapon" etc. I would suggest devising some galleries instead; these could be organized in any number of ways leaving a general gallery for the inevitable pile on photos that are sure to arrive. They could be divided chronologically or by fame or any number of methods that would be interesting and engaging to our readers. -- Banjeboi 23:59, 26 October 2008 (UTC)

Flip Wilson

Geraldine - pu-lease! -- Banjeboi 00:01, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Country

Would "Country" be a good addition of a column for the list? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 17:55, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe. I would move the refs next to the legal name - or stage name if legal one not present - and would prefer to see some information about why they have an article. -- Banjeboi 00:03, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Queentastic

The removal of Queentastic as "unreferenced" would appear to be a knee-jerk reaction, since the article (a) isn't about a person and (b) opens with the words "Queentastic is a group of Norwegian drag artists...". Can a modicum of common sense be applied (and the link restored), please?Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 15:31, 20 October 2008 (UTC)

One reason not to put them on this list is because they are a group, not an individual. Lady (group) wouldn't go on here, either. Just my opinion. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:09, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Maybe a companion list of drag queen groups? -- Banjeboi 00:04, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Earliest known?

The Roman Emperor Commodus? Amandajm (talk) 07:24, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Ive been looking for the reference to Commodus dressing himself as a female prostitute, but I can't find it! Amandajm (talk) 07:29, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

DRV and sourcing

Wikipedia:Deletion review/Log/2008 October 18 is closed. The ruling is that this article can exist but all entries must cite a reliable source. Any addition that does not cite a reliable source should be immediately removed. Protection will be used to enforce this requirement if necessary. Chick Bowen 23:37, 24 October 2008 (UTC)

I honestly believe that's crap, pardon my expression. Nowhere in the DRV did anyone explain how the profession of "Drag Queen" could be considered controversial. FWIW, I'm working on User:SatyrTN/List of drag queens to source them all, but I think it's utter bulls&*t. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 06:00, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I refer you to my comment on "Queentastic", in the section above. Andy Mabbett (User:Pigsonthewing); Andy's talk; Andy's edits 11:06, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

Nice job on the references and table, SatyrTN. It's a great improvement. Kaldari (talk) 16:56, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

(ec) The list as it's developing looks good to me; thank you for your work. As for controversy, it was controversial because people reacted to it that way. I've already gotten a flame on my talk page accusing me of homophobia, which I think is bullshit and an incredible assumption of bad faith. I read the DRV and summarized its consensus as best I could. I don't, actually, agree with it--as you say, I saw this as an uncontroversial list--but that's not my call. Chick Bowen 16:59, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

I think the comment was that you were enforcing homophobia, not that you yourself are homophobic. And he has a point - you could have closed "overturn" with no other comments - the comments on the DRV seemed unconvincing to me (but of course, I'm involved). But that's neither here nor there - it's done, we can move on with making a better encyclopedia. :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 17:16, 25 October 2008 (UTC)

OMG! I step back to take a breather due to other homophobic/transphobic nonsense and this ensues. I agree 1000% that listing someone as - sweet mother of pearl! - a drag queen is somehow some major BLP violation - it really isn't. The vast majority of Hollywood male actors have done drag. What should be worked on - like with so many lists - is a clearer inclusion criteria. So that those who do drag and those that cross-dress for a role are either included or discluded based on consensus. Milton Berle was known for his drag as was Bob Hope, and many many other mainstream vaudeville performers who carried those traditions to the television frontier. Personally, I think it's more helpful to include them and point out that the definition of drag queen is broad and inclusive and add comments to each entry of what role/film they were in and delineate if they were indeed cross-dressing, in drag, etc. Just as well I missed this - I would have been slapping {{trout}}. -- Banjeboi 00:37, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

I agree that the criteria need to be clarified. For instance, I didn't include Wesley Snipes because he's played a drag queen role, but isn't known for it at all. My sense is that having an established persona is a good criteria, and/or being known for often doing drag (like Berle and Hope). I don't know how to word that in a good way, though. I'd also like to put something in the criteria that indicates a difference between a drag performer and someone who is transgender. The line gets blurred - see Heklina and Shangay Lily for two examples. Again, I don't know how to word that. Just my ideas. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 00:52, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

My take would be to actually include Snipes and clarify he played a drag queen in ___ movie. In this way the list is useful and more accurate. Heklina, by the way, is a drag queen although there certainly are trans people who are also drag queen queens. Maybe that could be a part of the comment field? how do they identify or others identify them if it's not quite clear by the sourcing. -- Banjeboi 13:08, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Real life drag queens vs. fictional drag queens, actors that have performed in drag, and transvestites

I would like to propose that this list be limited to real life drag queens, i.e. people who perform drag routines in real life as a profession rather than fictional drag queens from movies (Hedwig) or actors who have performed in drag (Dustin Hoffman) or people who are simply famous transvestites (Eddie Izzard). I am proposing this not because being a drag queen is "inherently pejorative". Quite the opposite. Being a drag queen is a legitimate profession and an esteemed tradition. To list everyone who has ever performed in drag as a "drag queen" is insulting to actual drag queens, IMO. Kaldari (talk) 15:58, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Just to clarify, I'm wondering what the difference is between Eddie Izzard and Kevin Aviance? -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 16:42, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

In the case of Eddie Izzard, I would say it's a matter of self-identification. Eddie Izzard does not identify as a drag queen, in fact he specifically says he is not a drag queen, merely a transvestite. Eddie Izzard might be a bad example though since he is a performer. Kaldari (talk) 16:51, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

More specifically, Eddie Izzard does not impersonate women, he merely wears women's clothes. Kaldari (talk) 17:03, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Izzard is a cross-dresser, Aviance is a dragster and performance artist who also does drag. -- Banjeboi 17:19, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

Milton Berle

Is it appropriate to classify Milton Berle as a drag queen? Doing it as an actor, especially for sketch comedy, feels like a subtle difference from doing it for the sake of drag performance. If we include Berle, what about the cast of Kids in the Hall, Little Britain, and some of Saturday Night Live (especially Dana Carvey and Will Farrell)? Or how about film actors who just did one iconic role, like Jack Lemmon, Tony Curtis, and Dustin Hoffman? Doesn't feel right to me. You can be among men who have sex with men without being homosexual, I think you can be famous for dressing in drag without being a drag queen. -- AvatarMN (talk) 18:20, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

See above for some similar questions.

My thought is that Berle and Bob Hope (who's not on the list yet) were particularly known for their drag. Hoffman, while he was iconic, wasn't known for his drag. I'm not quite sure, though, how that definition works out. I said above that having a persona seems to be a factor, though not the only one. In these examples, Tootsie was a character, but only in that movie, so might not be considered a persona. But then, Berle didn't have a persona either. I agree, though, that there's a line somewhere - just haven't figured out where that is :) -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 18:49, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

Being known for performing in drag and being a drag queen are two different things. Unless there is a source describing Milton Berle as a "drag queen", he needs to be removed. (I tried to verify the source cited on Google Books, but wasn't able to.) I would say the same thing about Eddie Izzard: he is prominently known for performing in drag, but I wouldn't call him a drag queen. Kaldari (talk) 19:03, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

The Berle source says:

A drag queen routine was one of the favorite and most popular items in the repertoire of Milton Berle, one of early television's most popular comedians

-- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 20:43, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

I would suggest adding that quotation to the citation if you want to keep Berle on the list. Otherwise, he's just going to get challenged repeatedly. Kaldari (talk) 21:19, 28 October 2008 (UTC)

"Drag queen routine" itself sounds kind of telling to me. He wasn't a drag queen, he just played one on TV. Gary Anthony Williams is best known for playing a drag queen as a series regular on Boston Legal. There are probably actors who are best known for playing Angel in Rent, who haven't done drag otherwise so are not considered drag queens. Eddie Izzard is another blurry case, he crossdresses and is well-known for it; describes himself as a transvestite; but having no persona or real attempt to impersonate a female, doesn't fit the normal definition of drag queen. Crossdresser, or transvestite, but not drag queen. Maybe what we want is an article move to something with broader terminology, like transvestites or cross-dressers. -- AvatarMN (talk) 05:26, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

I think they should be included and denoted as actors simply doing drag queening for a sketch or role. This provides better information to our readers who look to see Wesley Snipes or Dustin Hoffman, who were noted for their drag, but encyclopedicly, they were simply acting a role. So include them and note the difference. We are dealing with shades here - what is considered a drag queen varies greatly although the definition includes amateurs and professionals. Our criteria should insist that either the character or actor has to have an article but beyond that it does start to get fuzzy. There are more exceptions to the every rule we can come up with. -- Banjeboi 21:21, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Dustin Hoffman is not a drag queen. There has never been a person in drag that said "Hello, I'm Dustin Hoffman!". Just as we wouldn't list Tom Hanks under List of gay, lesbian or bisexual people even though he's famous for playing one in a movie, we would not list Dustin Hoffman here. Feel free to create a List of actors who have performed in drag, but do not add them here. Kaldari (talk) 22:28, 29 October 2008 (UTC)

Sorry, disagree. Not sure if there is an easy or elegant solution - besides the one I already suggested - but many people we consider drag queens could just as easily be thrown on that list as well, and that list would include drag kings as well. Dustin Hoffman played a character in female drag, it was the plot device of the movie. I think we shoudl find a way to include him and simply note why he's included. We could have a dozen lists all covering the same basic concept and quibble which list(s) each entry goes or we could have one comprehensive list that notes why someone is included. I think the later is more helpful to our readers who may not understand the difference by are keen to figure it out. That drag has a history going back centuries and includes many major mainstream stars seems also worth noting. Also let's move off the idea that being a drag queen or referring to someone as a drag queen is inherently pejorative. It's not, although like many slang terms, it can be. -- Banjeboi 10:49, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

(outdent) Those suggestions are certainly one way to go - expand the definition and rename the list to "List of drag performers" or something like that? Benji, your definition (two comments back) presumes a character, too - is there consensus around that?

I worry about the criteria getting too loose and fuzzy, though, and I wonder about losing the direct connection to Drag queen, an established and esteemed profession. Adding people who have cross-dressed for a role (like Snipes) means that we've got people who are definitely not "queens", but are just doing drag. And if we loosen the criteria too far, we might end up with People who have worn the clothes of their opposite gender, which is *definitely* un-encyclopedic. Myself, I'd prefer tightening the criteria and adding a more definite lede regarding Drag queens and their role throughout history and around the world. If other lists develop (List of fictional drag queens comes to mind), that's all well and good. -- SatyrTN (talk / contribs) 14:15, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

• What about a separate section following the main list for actors notable for appearing in drag but who aren't drag queens? Put Berle there (and Tom Hanks for that matter based on "Bosom Buddies"). Otto4711 (talk) 14:19, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

I strongly agree with SatyrTN: conflating "people who have acted in drag" with "drag queens" is insulting to actual drag queens who have developed and practiced their profession in the real world. For no other "list of people who are a profession" do we list people who have only emulated that profession in an acting role. To do so implies that being a drag queen is nothing more than wearing drag, which seems insulting and demeaning to actual drag queens. The list of people who have worn drag in movies and tv is a mile long. If we added them all here, the actual drag queens would be lost in a sea of noise. Kaldari (talk) 15:29, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

Disagree to a point. There are a wide variety of drag queens. Some have known personae, some are chameleons, many are also professional actors or transition into the field. Some prefer "female illusionist" others find that insulting - especially if they are transwomen. I wouldn't be opposed to two lists - one for a tighter defined inclusion and the other for other notable people known for being a drag queen (or similar concept). Eventually I envision a list of Notable actors who have performed as drag queens could be spun out. we also might need to amend this article to List of drag queens and female impersonators. -- Banjeboi 17:29, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

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Missing German popular drag queens

• Olivia Jones de:Olivia Jones (born 1969)
• Nina Queer de:Nina Queer (born 1979)
• Melitta Sundström de:Melitta Sundström (1964-1993)
• Ernie Reinhardt Lilo Wanders de:Ernie Reinhardt (born 1955)
• Georg Preuße de:Georg Preuße (born 1950) and Reiner Kohler de:Reiner Kohler (1944-1995) as Mary and Gordy
• Georgette Dee de:Georgette Dee (born 1958)
• Tima die Göttliche de:Tima die Göttliche (born 1965)

In List German drag queens still miss. GLGermann (talk) 17:16, 17 February 2010 (UTC)

Raja

Can someone who's familiar with this list add Sutan Amrull, AKA Raja, winner of RuPaul's Drag Race season 3? I don't get the sorting. Thanks. Harley Hudson (talk) 05:35, 26 April 2011 (UTC)

+ Darcelle XV

How is the order of the list determined? Darcelle XV should be added. --Another Believer _(Talk) 16:26, 3 July 2013 (UTC)

Inconsistency of "Lifetime" formatting

I tried to make the lifetime-column a bit more consistent, but what is going on with Sherry Vine? I seriously doubt she's born in 1922. Did someone copy the "active since 1992" from her page with a typo? Judith Sunrise (talk) 13:45, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

Thanks for your help. I removed it. Her birth date is unknown. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 19:57, 9 August 2015 (UTC)

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Rollback non-notables

I rolled back a nummber of recent edits where only red-linked non-notables had been added. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 07:23, 15 June 2017 (UTC)

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Roxanne Russell/Logan Carter

I suggest that an editor intersted in this list might want to reverse this if these 3 sources might be enough 1, 2 & 3 (previous ref). This is one of the very few early drag performers who actually had parts in major TV shows and movies, playing RG's as well as DQ's. --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:32, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

PS He probably shouldn't be red-linked but listed as several others are, with both their real names and stage names in black. There's also this source and mentions such as this and this. Also this. Good luck! --SergeWoodzing (talk) 23:46, 9 January 2018 (UTC)

@SergeWoodzing: Lists of people in wikipedia that could potentially have a very very large number of entries generally only contain notable exemples i.e. those that have a page on themselves otherwise anyone who has ever performed in drag would be included in this list. The page on Logan Carter was deleted as being non notable here Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Logan Carter. It was redlinked following its deletion and the entry was then removed as the list should only contain notable exemples. To be included in a list as per WP:LISTPEOPLE a person has to both meet the Wikipedia notability requirement and the person's membership in the list's group is established by reliable sources. Having gone through a deletion discussion it was decided that Logan did not meet the notability requirements so should not be included in this list. Thank you for pointing out that there are non notable entries in the list, I shall clean that up. Domdeparis (talk) 16:30, 18 January 2018 (UTC)

I have removed SergeWoodzing's last comment as it is off topic and purely personal and moved it to my talk page User talk:Domdeparis#Bringing conversation from Talk:List of drag queens#Roxanne Russell/Logan Carter to my talk page [redacted]. If he wishes to reply it should be there. --Domdeparis (talk) 10:47, 19 January 2018 (UTC)

Wrong templte box at top?

This list article can hardly be called a "biography of a living person". Is there a more appropriate template to make us look a bit less breezy? --SergeWoodzing (talk) 11:54, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Following the hard work done by User:Brooklynwitch and the fact that this is a standalone list where all entries have their own pages I don't think this template is necessary any more. I'll remove it. Dom from Paris (talk) 12:30, 23 April 2018 (UTC)

Missing: Flawless Shade

Reminder to add Flawless Shade ---Another Believer _(Talk) 23:36, 3 January 2022 (UTC)

Done, but I do not see why you did not add it your self. Richard-of-Earth (talk) 05:46, 4 January 2022 (UTC)

Thanks! ---Another Believer _(Talk) 05:13, 7 January 2024 (UTC)