Talk:Lists of ethnic minority politicians in the United Kingdom

Article move

I moved the article to be consistent with Wikipedia:MOS#Article_titles.2C_headings.2C_and_sections. Ground Zero | t 12:29, 30 November 2010 (UTC)

Headings

Since this whole article is identified as being a "List of...", can we simplify and shorten the sub-headings by removing "List of.... from the beginning of each? Ground Zero | t 14:49, 20 December 2010 (UTC)

Done. Sorry it took 13 years to notice this. Also, I don't know what the title you're talking about above was, but I moved it again today. It's more than 13 lists! Hope you understand. InedibleHulk (talk) 02:34, 24 March 2024 (UTC)

Ethnic minority more like non-white politicians

Thi article lacks mention of any politicians who are ethnic minorities and are white. Good examples of white ethnic minority politicians, all my examples are ethnically jewish, would be Benjamin Disraeli who was Prime Minister and the Miliband brothers (Ed Milliband and David Milliband) and John Bercow the current speaker. They are doubtlessly countless other examples of white ethnic minority politicians in Britain some of whom probably aren't jewish. I would simply add them myself and will do but I thought I should let this issue come to the attention of users on here. Eopsid (talk) 12:52, 11 December 2011 (UTC)

I agree. It is inappropriate (and smacks of politicking) to include Disraeli but no other Jews. It smacks, to be frank, of a Conservative editor wanting to boost the Tories' 'minority count' without including the many Jewish Labour (and some Tory) MPs of the 20th century. I suggest removing Disraeli and changing the name of the article to 'visible ethnic minority British politicians', or someone doing some research and adding all the Jewish MPs. Tom Black (talk) 12:56, 14 December 2011 (UTC)

Yeah, I don't understand why Disraeli is included. Ethnicity is almost synonymous with skin colour in the UK, and officially the ethnic groups within the population are defined as being: White, Black, Asian, Mixed and Chinese (see Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom). In addition, there is a seperate list of British Jewish politicians (linked at the bottom of this article).--86.179.225.42 (talk) 13:08, 4 September 2012 (UTC)

Really confused about the criteria at work here. Marta Andreasen is listed as a British-Argentinian MEP (although she's a Spanish national). If this makes her an ethnic minority, why not the MPs Rudi Vis (Dutch), Gisele Stuart (German), Daniel Kawczynski (Polish)? Also, Stanley Johnson is listed as being British Turkish, on the basis of one Turkish grandparent - should we then include Robert Halfon, the grandson of an Italian Jew who used to live in Libya? CulturalSnow (talk) 05:50, 10 November 2014 (UTC)

The issue of Jews not being included in this list is still there, years on from when people first started discussing it here (also lots of mentions in the ‘Need for review’ section below). There are many scholarly and other public articles and studies about Jews being an ethnic minority, so unless the title of this list changes to ‘people of colour’ or similar, they should be included. There’s enough publicly citable articles that balance the UK census categories only including Jewish as a religion. That makes invisible Jews (and Gypsy, Traveller & Roma people who should also be included here). To put it glibly, the gestapo (& white supremacists now) don’t ask Jews if they are religious before persecuting or killing them, it’s their ethnicity that counts. Disraeli (sometime’s included in this list) was not a religious Jew, but ethnically Jewish. White Jews are not Caucasian genetically, and not all Jews are white (there are also black African, Chinese, Middle Eastern etc). I would not spend the time adding Jews (& GTR folks if any have been politicians here) because from the debate it looks like people have spent time adding Jews here and then others have edited them out, leading to the idea that #JewsDontCount and not taking into account the academic articles I alluded to. So…? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.70.132.46 (talk • contribs) 13:01, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

I'm sympathetic to the argument that Jewish MPs should be included, and recently made this addition. One of the challenges is that Wikipedia articles should be based reliable sources rather than original research, and the list that we tend to use for this article, which is a House of Commons Library briefing paper on ethnic diversity in politics (latest version here), doesn't include Jewish politicians in its definition. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:22, 25 July 2021 (UTC)

Surely the answer here is just add a note to the footnote saying that the list is based on the HoC doc primarily but with jewish politicians added on. Firestar47 (talk) 16:01, 28 October 2022 (UTC)

David Dyce Sombre

Would David Ochterlony Dyce Sombre qualify for inclusion in the list?--86.144.246.177 (talk) 06:13, 24 November 2014 (UTC)

Need for review

1. Claude Moraes is not a 'British Yemeni', he's just born in Aden from an Indian family that left Yemen to India, then to Scotland when he was 3 (Background)
2. Marina Yannakoudakis is not a 'British Turkish', there's nothing in her article apart from she's born in London and married to a Greek-born husband
3. if Marta Andreasen is included because she's born and has lived and worked in a non-European country, why doesn't Peter Hain qualify ? He's born in Kenya in 1950, then lived in South Africa from 1951 to 1966. Idem for Anita Pollack who was an Australian-born and Australian citizen MEP (biography)
4. are Indian East Africans 'British Tanzanians', 'British Kenyans' and 'British Ugandans', I wonder how they self-identify ?

--Minorities observer (talk) 07:22, 8 May 2015 (UTC)

Another problem with Boris Johnson, 'British Turkish' only because he has a Turkish great-grandfather ? This is no longer ethnicity but rather ridiculously genetics and racialism. --Minorities observer (talk) 06:14, 10 May 2015 (UTC)

Agreed, Minorities observer. I'm going to open an RfC to get wider input on this. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:22, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

There's no indication of what criteria are being used for inclusion on this list, some of the entries are tenuous at best (e.g. would anyone describe Boris Johnson as a member of an ethnic minority?), and there is a complete lack of sources, which is problematic from a BLP point of view. How can we best resolve these problems? Looking for sources should be relatively easy, but what criteria should be used for inclusion? Cordless Larry (talk) 20:22, 30 May 2015 (UTC)

Yesterday an IP user added some 'Anglo-Jewish' MPs, already Milliband and Disraeli. Next: Scottish, Welsh, Cornish and Irish MPs elected in English constituencies and vice versa ? Political scientists do indeed consider that the experience of political organization and participation of the Irish and Jewish minorities in England are historically comparable to the present-day minorities, but should this go as far as beginning the hard and perilous task to list all MPs with (sometimes remotely) Irish or Jewish ancestry? Anyway, would it not be wiser to make several lists by ethnicity or ethnic group? And see how it would look to have a 'List of (Anglo-)Jewish politicians in the United Kingdom'? --Minorities observer (talk) 06:24, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I've been looking for similar lists for other countries, to see how this has been handled elsewhere, but I can't find any! Cordless Larry (talk) 08:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

To be honest I can't even work out why this article exists. I have no idea what makes someone an ethnic minority in the UK. I imagine that any Scot, Welsh or Irish sitting in Westminster would qualify, as would any English MSP. At the very least the article needs an explanation for international readers. -- haminoon (talk) 10:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Yup. A list needs criteria for inclusion - and for something like this where criteria aren't obvious, cited sources indicating that the criteria aren't just being pulled out of thin air. Or subject to the personal whim of contributors. And it should further be noted that per Wikipedia:Categorization/Ethnicity, gender, religion and sexuality we should only be including living persons on the basis of sourced self-identification. AndyTheGrump (talk) 11:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I think this edit by SleepCovo illustrates the criteria point well. SleepCovo says "Being Jewish is not the same as being an ethnic minority!". Others clearly think that being Jewish does make one an ethnic minority. The problem arises when there is no agreed definition being used for inclusion in the list. Then there's the issue of people who are part Jewish, or part Turkish, etc.... I agree with Andy that the criteria need to be based on sources, too, not just dreamt up by us. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

In response to what makes an ethnic minority in the UK, it means someone who is not white or someone whose ancestors were originally from a country where the population is not white. SleepCovo (talk) 11:12, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

That's certainly one common use of the term ethnic minority, but it confuses ethnicity and race. Most scholarly definitions of ethnicity would lead to a wider definition. The OED defines ethnic minority as "a group within a country or community which has different national or cultural traditions from the larger, dominant population", for what it's worth. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:19, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Marta Andreasen is included because she was born in South America and is therefore 'classified' just as she would be in America as an 'ethnic minority'. Peter Hain is not included because whilst he was born in Kenya, he is Caucasian. As I stated in my revert on the article, being Jewish is not the same as being an ethnic minority. Maybe that is different in other countries I cannot say, but in the UK, if you are Jewish then that is your religion not your ethnicity. However because Turkey is not a European Country and is a Middle Eastern one, according to Parliament you are classified as someone from an ethnic minority background! SleepCovo (talk) 11:17, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

"According to parliament" - has parliament made a definition we can use and put in the introduction? Because this is confusing to international readers as well as editors. -- haminoon (talk) 11:20, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

According to parliament? Can you provide a source for that? I also don't understand your point about someone being born in South America making them a member of an ethnic minority. What if they are white, like Peter Hain? As for Jewishness being about religion rather than ethnicity, what about secular Jews? Are they still Jewish if they're not religious? Cordless Larry (talk) 11:22, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Peter Hain is not an ethnic minority so I can't understand why you re using him as an example? SleepCovo (talk) 11:30, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

You said that he's not included because although he was born in Kenya, he's white. But you also said that being born in South America makes someone a member of an ethnic minority, so my question is, why are the rules different for Kenya and South America? What you're suggesting is that if Peter Hain was born in South America rather than Kenya, he'd be a member of an ethnic minority. I don't get that. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:35, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Also articles discussing the new intake of BME MPs never mention those MPs who are Jewish because they are not seen as being an ethnic minority! SleepCovo (talk) 11:34, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Which articles are these? No sources are cited in the article. If you have some, that would be helpful. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:36, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Here are some of the articles: http://parliamentarycandidates.org/2015-candidates/bme-mps-elected-at-2015-general-election/ http://www.theguardian.com/politics/2015/may/08/record-numbers-female-minority-ethnic-mps-commons SleepCovo (talk) 11:42, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

A comparable article was List of LGBT elected British politicians. It was deleted late last year - see Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of LGBT elected British politicians. In that discussion, Brooklands263 claimed to have created it but this note makes it seem that Comte de Mountstuart created it around the same time as this one. Both accounts were socks of Marquis de la Eirron, who has continued to sock for years after being blocked and banned. Other comparable articles include

• List of minority governors and lieutenant governors in the United States, created by that sock Brooklands263
• List of military veterans in British politics, created by blocked sock The Harsh Song of Space
• Lists of female political office-holders in the United Kingdom, created by blocked sock HongKongBoy91 apparently using this article as a template (the first version's opening words were "The list of people who belong to ethnic minorities who have been elected as Members of the House of Commons of the United Kingdom, European Union and other British devolved assemblies and also Members of the un-elected House of Lords.")
• Others may have been deleted and I should raise a new SPI before mentioning certain others. How tedious.

I agree that the implicit criteria for this article encompass far too many possibilities; from the examples already included, the article's seriously incomplete! The case for deletion seems stronger than that presented at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of LGBT elected British politicians. NebY (talk) 11:25, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• • I have deleted those of turkish descent from the article aswell as Marta! SleepCovo (talk) 11:38, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
    • There are some others you might want to look at, NebY, such as List of female Members of the London Assembly (you might already be aware of this, but I'm just checking). Cordless Larry (talk) 11:44, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
      • I have raised an SPI concerning SleepCovo and User:82.6.168.150 (who has also edited this article recently) at Wikipedia:Sockpuppet investigations/Marquis de la Eirron. NebY (talk) 13:00, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
        • Thanks, NebY. I realise that this is all rather tedious, but your efforts to get to the bottom of this are appreciated. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:09, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
          • Thanks! TLDR version: this article and several similar ones were created by blocked and banned user Marquis de la Eirron and their socks. They made 49% of the edits to this article. SleepCovo and 82.16.168.150 made another 7%. NebY (talk) 14:54, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
            • I haven't done anything wrong so why am I being accused of being a sock puppet just because I have edited some articles? As far as I am aware I have done nothing wrong on wikipedia at all? SleepCovo (talk) 16:40, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
              • OK, SleepCovo has been blocked as a sockpuppet. On the basis that this discussion hasn't helped us find criteria for inclusion, I'm happy to nominate this article for deletion. NebY, do you think any others should be included in the same nomination? Cordless Larry (talk) 18:29, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
                • I'm glad you'll do that - I have no practice in starting AfDs and would be very hesitant. List of minority governors and lieutenant governors in the United States is another listing of politicians without clear criteria or sourcing, likewise created by Marquis with one sock and edited by Marquis with another, totalling about 50% of the edits and nearly all the material. List of Jewish members of the United States Congress, created using the SleepCovo account, also has unclear criteria and this has been raised at Talk:List of Jewish members of the United States Congress by several senior editors, who seem to remain unhappy about it. Though slightly different US and UK concepts of ethnic minority might complicate the discussion a bit, it might be helpful for US and UK editors who don't normally edit articles about the other's politics to see what Marquis has been doing. That might even trigger further AfDs. Maybe. I'm wary of bundling all creations into one AfD and I do notice some other ones have a wider range of editors, some quite enthusiastic. NebY (talk) 19:04, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
                  • OK, I'll do that shortly, after thinking about whether it's a good idea to bundle them or not. On List of Jewish members of the United States Congress, I'd like to get the thoughts of Epeefleche, who I know is a major editor of List of Jews in sport and might have a view to share on this. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:10, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
                    • I'd be very wary of bundling such a diverse set of lists at AfD - I don't think that the bundle would meet the criteria set out in WP:MULTIAFD and it is likely to result in a confused and inconclusive discussion. AndyTheGrump (talk) 19:18, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Are "British Kenyan" and "British Sri Lankans" actually considered ethnicities in the UK? In most of the world Kenyan and Sri Lankan are just nationalities. -- haminoon (talk) 11:42, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

The problem is that official ethnicity classifications in the UK mix up all sorts of things including ethnicity, race and nationality. See Classification of ethnicity in the United Kingdom for some explanation. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I would say that if you live in the UK and you are not white caucasian then you are classified as an ethnic minority or BME!! SleepCovo (talk) 11:50, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I don't think it's as simple as that. The Office for National Statistics considers Gypsy or Irish Travellers to be an ethnic minority. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:00, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

No gypsys or travellers have ever been elected SleepCovo (talk) 12:02, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Perhaps not, but it illustrates that your definition of ethnic minority is problematic. I have doubts that we can find satisfactory criteria for inclusion in this list. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:04, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I think for this list it should be for those who are not white and are classified as ethnic minorities SleepCovo (talk) 12:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Classified by who though? As I've indicated, there are varying definitions of who counts as an ethnic minority. Since race is a social rather than scientific concept, there's also likely to be debate about who is and who isn't white. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:41, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Anyone who isn't white in the UK is an ethnic minority so all those in this article are therefore ethnic minorities! SleepCovo (talk) 16:40, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

You keep saying that anyone who isn't white is an ethnic minority, but I've pointed out that some white people are considered ethnic minorities. You haven't provided a source for this definition, and you haven't addressed the point that there is possible debate about who is considered white and who is not. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I have given you some articles which clearly state who are ethnic minorities in parliament so why are you disagreeing, yes you stated that gypsies are minorities but there are none in parliament so all minorities are going to be non white! SleepCovo (talk) 17:45, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Also in the United Kingdom anyone who isn't white caucasian (except gypsies) is classified as an ethnic minority! If you are either black or asian then you are a BME!! SleepCovo (talk) 17:47, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, but what we're after is sourced criteria that can be used to assess who should be included in the list. A list of current BME politicians doesn't provide us with that. What we need is an agreed definition of ethnic minority, and the sources that you've provided don't offer a definition. Cordless Larry (talk) 18:02, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

But surely someone who isn't white is an ethnic minority as that is what an ethnic minority is in the UK! Someone who is black or asian that lives in the UK is an ethnic minority! SleepCovo (talk) 18:05, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, Black and Asian people are pretty much universally regarded as ethnic minorities, but for other groups it's not so clear. I've already mentioned Irish Travellers, and there's clearly debate about Jewish people. Some sources include these groups as ethnic minorities, and other sources don't include them. To use two examples from the list, are Nadhim Zahawi and Iain Duncan Smith from ethnic minorities by your criteria? Cordless Larry (talk) 18:11, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

I'm concerned most of the ethnicities listed here aren't self-identified. I couldn't find a cite of Usha Prashar calling herself Kenyan but I found one where she said she is of Indian origin. I've found nothing on the others I've looked for. -- haminoon (talk) 11:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

The more I think about this, the more I find myself agreeing with NebY's suggestion that the case for deletion is pretty strong. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:57, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

If there are inaccuracies, I think we should change them! Such as the one to Usha Prashar by changing Kenyan to Indian! SleepCovo (talk) 11:59, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Well, I was away the whole afternoon for a major cultural event in Brussels and I was pleased to read such an interesting debate when I got back. I think part of the problem is that SleepCovo considers that 1) only 'someone who isn't white' (except for Gipsy or Traveller ) belongs to an 'ethnic minority', this is only a very narrow and controversial definition based on the colonial practices in the British Empire 2) 'someone who isn't white' is anyone who has some 'non white' ancestor, even if one doesn't self-defines as 'non white' and/or is not 'visibly non white', which seems to me dangerously like racist labelling (as in the Nuremberg Laws). Moreover, he stated in the debate that 'Turkey is not a European Country and is a Middle Eastern one', which is purely POV (even if I could agree with him, but keeping aware it would only be my personal opinion on a debated matter) as Turkey is a full-fledged (not an observer) member of the Council of Europe, candidate member to the European Union, and considered by a number of people, both inside and outside Turkey, as a 'European' country. As a matter of fact, most Turks I encountered are physically not less 'white' than most Greeks, Italians or Romanians. I agree with AndyTheGrump: 'we should only be including living persons on the basis of sourced self-identification'. I would be, in my opinion, less problematic to keep this page only as a skeleton with links towards such sections of pages as List of British Indians#Politics. But the best solution would be, as suggested by NebY and Cordless Larry to delete the article AND the similar lists, e.g. List of British Indians#Politics, as the main problem, not yet discussed here, is that such lists are mostly 'original research' (as on my own wiki). --Minorities observer (talk) 19:48, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Yes, I posted about the RfC on the OR and BLP noticeboards and that brought in some valuable contributions. I agree with you observations, although I don't have as much of a problem with the lists of politicians within articles such as List of British Indians, because it's much easier to identify someone as British Indian using objective criteria than it is to identify someone as a member of an ethnic minority, when the definition of ethnic minority is not clear and agreed. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:55, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

• Responding to Cordless (thanks for the ping); frankly, it's a busy Saturday and I've not had the time to parse through all of this long thread. Just a few comments, relating to what I have had time to skim. 1 - I'm a fan of RS sourcing in general. 2 - There is no self-identication requirement with ethnicity, gender, or sexuality, as was asserted ... we rely on RSs. 3 - Many religions are not also nationalities. And are not also religions. Judaism is different in that regard, as it is all three. Epeefleche (talk) 20:07, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
  • Thanks, Epeefleche. I was mainly seeking your views on List of Jewish members of the United States Congress, which was mentioned as a possible candidate for deletion above. It seems to have been created by a sock of the user who created this article, which isn't to say that it's not a useful list, but I'd appreciate your thoughts. Cordless Larry (talk) 20:27, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
    • A List of Jewish members of the United States Congress should be easier to check as the religion is mentioned on the official personalia of every congressperson, but then why not a List of Mormon members of the United States Congress, a List of Greek American members of the United States Congress? There is already a List of African-American United States Representatives. --Minorities observer (talk) 21:33, 13 June 2015 (UTC)
    • I haven't had time to address this as of yet to the extent that it deserves thought. But offhand, it does not seem like an appropriate deletion target. The fact that a sock created it is of course unfortunate. But it stands on its own merits. This is just the sort of intersection that we cover at Wikipedia, both in list form and cat form, is my initial reaction. The fact that a sock created it is -- for deletion purposes -- irrelevant. Just as it would be irrelevant if a sock created a page on the cross-section of British Olympians (if there is a page of that name). And pages if appropriate are kept even if there may be debate as to whether certain individuals should or should not be included ... that also does not bear on the delete determination. Those are my initial thoughts. Sorry for the delay responding. Best. Epeefleche (talk) 04:05, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
      • Thanks, Epeefleche. As you've seen, in the end I just nominated this article alone and didn't include any of the others identified. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:51, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
        • Understood. Sorry my response was delayed. As I said there, I don't think AfD is the place for cleanup. And, as to the woeful absence of refs, for the nom especially (subject to wp:before) the existence of RS coverage is really what counts at the end of the day, rather than their existence in the article. Best. Epeefleche (talk) 08:14, 16 June 2015 (UTC)
        • I've nominated this article for deletion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic minority politicians in the United Kingdom. I didn't include any others. My thinking is that this can act as a sort of test case for other, similar articles. Cordless Larry (talk) 22:06, 13 June 2015 (UTC)

Parliament list of ethnic minority politicians

This list published by Parliament of dozens of ethnic minority politicians (including ethnic minority Members of the House of Lords in October 2013) can be used to provide support for much of this wikipedia list. --Epeefleche (talk) 08:56, 16 June 2015 (UTC)

Even now, after some more 'sourcing' (not for the controversial inserts) this page is clearly misleading and full of people who don't enter even a crazily extended concept of 'ethnic minority', «Duncan Smith's maternal great-grandmother was a Japanese woman» -> «White British/Japanese British» ! I guess the whole royal family would belong to the ethnic minority of «German British» with this sort of logic ? --Minorities observer (talk) 17:53, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Why do you put 'sourcing' in quotes? I've provided RS sourcing -- just as a sample of what is possible -- for 75 individuals. --Epeefleche (talk) 18:30, 17 June 2015 (UTC)

Your sources are press articles based on the journalists 'common sense' definition of 'ethnic minority' and a document by Wood & Cracknell where 'ethnic minority' is equated with people with 'non White background'. Both 'sources' may not be considered as reliable to list people on an ethnic base. Moreover, by the time the first 'mixed race' and 'non White' lords and MPs entered the Parliament, it was either through their White aristocratic filiation or as symbols either of critics/support of British imperialism and/or of the unicity of the working class, just like Roestam Effendi in the Netherlands. Not as 'ethnic minority politicians'. It is a-historical to use the present mediatic (not scientific) and somewhat racist concept of 'ethnic minority based on non White background' to analyse/classify XIXth and beginning of XXth century political situations. In my opinion, it would be much more useful to recycle the information in the press articles in specific sections of every WP article on United Kingdom general elections as I did in the past on the French WP for the Turkish electors and MPs in the 2005 German federal elections (I regret now I didn't source it correctly then, but I was a 1st year beginner on WP) or (more sourced) for the 'diversity' candidates to the 2008 French municipal elections. Bare lists of politicians for these matters (and others) are useless and even noxious. --Minorities observer (talk) 11:10, 20 June 2015 (UTC)

As you say: "Your sources are press articles". Yes. RSs. Of course we may rely on RSs. Whatever makes you think not (excluding your OR as to the reliability of the RS here). We follow Wikipedia guidelines, not individual editors' OR. That's the DNA of notability, per GNG. Furthermore, we have Parliament itself as a source. You call the RS-supported identification of race "racist". That's blatant POV. The RSs and parliament so identify the individuals; it is therefore appropriate for us to do so. Your personal feelings that youdon'tlikeit aside. It doesn't matter whether we are speaking of race or nationality or place of birth -- if the RSs report it, it is appropriate for us to report it, even if some individual editors may seek to have it hidden from Wikipedia. This is obviously an intersection heavily covered by both scholarly articles and RSs. We don't hide those because "Minorities observer" wants to hide it. And there is nothing inappropriate about lists -- whether they be lists by RSs or lists in Wikipedia -- we don't require the RS to use prose to say the same thing. Epeefleche (talk) 06:29, 21 June 2015 (UTC)

Hi Epeefleche. Since the AfD closed as no consensus, I'm now going to try to do some work on ensuring the list is fully sourced. Can I just check whether there was a specific reason you used the 2013 version of this source rather than the 2015 version? I wonder if anyone on the list is mentioned in the former but not the latter. I could check myself, but it might take a while given the numbers involved! Cordless Larry (talk) 08:34, 10 July 2015 (UTC)

• Hi Cordless. Sorry for the delay ... I've been away on vacation. No - I don't recall for certain, but think I had just come across the 2013 version. Everything else being equal (I don't have time to look at them now), I would think the more recent the better. Best. Epeefleche (talk) 00:12, 13 July 2015 (UTC)
  • Yes, I agree that the more recent version would be preferable, especially since the 2013 version no longer seems accessible, but I'm a bit worried about changing the citations as there are so many, and there's a chance that the new version doesn't support all of the claims sourced to the old version. I'll take a look into this properly when I get more time. Cordless Larry (talk) 07:02, 13 July 2015 (UTC)

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Chris Kelly

Since Bambos Chambolous has been added to the list since he is of Cypriot descent, surely Chris Kelly should be aswell since he is also of cypriot descent. If not then I would suggest removing Bambos from the list since it would be strange to have one and not the other on the list since they are both from the same ethnic background. 14.136.144.32 (talk) 16:19, 18 June 2017 (UTC)

During the discussion at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic minority politicians in the United Kingdom, the keep side of the argument countered claims of original research by suggesting that we should only include in this list MPs who have been described as members of ethnic minorities. Charalambous is included in this list of ethnic minority MPs, whereas Chris Kelly is not. If we decide that Kelly is from an ethnic minority because he has one parent from Cyprus (and perhaps because his other parent is from Ireland?), then this is a slip back towards original research. We need inclusion criteria for the list, and I think that being described as an ethnic minority MP in a reliable source is the best option here. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:57, 19 June 2017 (UTC)

I have also removed Paul Scully on the same grounds. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:27, 4 July 2017 (UTC)

• Sources have shown that Paul Scully is of indian/burmese descent, whilst other source shows that the former MP is of Cypriot decent, just like Bambos. FinalDestiny1991 (talk) 11:34, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

The problem is, FinalDestiny1991, that unless we have sources describing these people as members of ethnic minorities, then we are engaging in original research. Following the logic you are applying, I could say that someone with an Irish grandparent is a member of an ethnic minority and add tens (hundreds?) of additional names to the list. Then someone will say that Boris Johnson is part Turkish and add him, and so on. Please see the discussions above, and at Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic minority politicians in the United Kingdom, about this. Please also see WP:BRD and establish consensus here on the talk page rather than re-adding material that has been reverted. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:38, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

• Clearly you don't understand how being an ethnic minority works, as Irish people are white and therefore are not described or classified as 'ethnic minorities' by the UK Government. Whilst I agree that maybe Paul Scully should be left off until further sources are provided, I would suggest keeping the former MP Chris Kelly in the list. It would be strange to have one cypriot: Bambos, in the article, but then not include the other Cypriot: Chris. FinalDestiny1991 (talk) 11:45, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

You are confusing ethnicity and race, FinalDestiny1991. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:50, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

No i'm not. I don't think you understand how being an ethnic minority in the UK works, as people who are white, unless they are travellers/gypsies, do not count as minorities. You could be french, german, irish etc, but because you are white you are not classified by the Government as an ethnic minority. FinalDestiny1991 (talk) 11:53, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

That's not true - see "the largest non-UK born ethnic minority group was Other White" here. If it was true, then why are you arguing that Chris Kelly is an ethnic minority MP? He's white. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:58, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

That's still white though. As for 'Other White' that means people who aren't 'British White' as in not a British citizen or someone who is white but wasn't born in the UK. Chris Kelly is half Cypriot and is of the same descent as Bambos, so if Bambos is allowed on the article for being Cypriot, then Chris should also be on the list for being Cypriot. FinalDestiny1991 (talk) 12:05, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

What is the definition, then? Above, you said that only non-white people are ethnic minorities, but now you seem to be arguing something different. In the meantime, I've seen that a new official list has been published by parliament, here. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:07, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

You'll note that that report lists Charalambous, whereas the 2013 version does not list Kelly, who was an MP at that time. That's why Charalambous was included in the list and not Kelly. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:15, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

I'd say the definition is 'Non white' and thats why I don't think Bambos should be in the list as he's Cypriot, which is a European country. As you correctly pointed out, Boris Johnson is of Turkish descent, so why is he not on the list and yet Bambos is since they both have similar backgrounds, if not the same type of background. If it was up to me i'd remove Bambos from the article, however since he's staying I think its only right that we add Chris to the list since he's of the same descent. Maybe in 2013 being of Cyrpiot descent didn't mean you were a minority and 4 years later it does, who knows? FinalDestiny1991 (talk) 12:21, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

We have multiple sources, including parliament, supporting the view that Charalambous is from an ethnic minority. I haven't seen one source stating that Chris Kelly is from one. That's your interpretation and is therefore original research. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:28, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Returning to the race/ethnicity issue, I do agree that these concepts are often conflated in the UK, although I don't agree that the official definition of ethnic minorities includes only non-white groups. The sources do seem to focus on non-white MPs, though. Gisela Stuart isn't included in the parliamentary briefing papers, for instance. Nonetheless, I maintain that we need clear inclusion criteria, and this should be whether the MP is described as a member of an ethnic minority, rather than a description of their ethnicity with no indication of whether this places them in this group of minority MPs. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:08, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Pinging previous discussion participants Minorities observer, Haminoon, AndyTheGrump, NebY and Epeefleche. Cordless Larry (talk) 21:46, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

Update: FinalDestiny1991 has been blocked as a sockpuppet. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:16, 30 July 2017 (UTC)

Count of Lords Members (as of Nov 2017)

Article says "the House of Commons Library estimates that there are 45 ethnic minority members of the House of Lords as of July 2017", but the table has 52 "Serving" members. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Scartboy (talk • contribs) 10:59, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I've realised this before, Scartboy, but thanks for raising it here. The 45 figure comes from this edition of the publication "Ethnic minorities in politics and public life". Baroness Uddin, who is listed in our table, is not named in that edition of the publication, but she was named in a previous edition. I'm not sure if that issue accounts for all of the discrepancy, but it certainly explains some of it. Cordless Larry (talk) 15:34, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

I'm a sucker for a bit of research, so here's the reconciliation of the two lists:

The PDF text mentions 45 peers, but it's table has only 44; Michael Nazir-Ali was not included in the table, but apparently included in the 45 mentioned in the text.

The 44 in the PDF table include three names missing from the WP list:

Haleh Ashfar

John Mugabi Tucker Sentamu

Oona King

In turn, the WP list has the following eleven peers who are missing from the PDF list:

Bernard Ribeiro, Baron Ribeiro

Jitesh Gadhia, Baron Gadhia

Nosheena Mobarik, Baroness Mobarik

Qurban Hussain, Baron Hussain

Raj Loomba, Baron Loomba

Ranbir Singh Suri, Baron Suri

Ruby McGregor-Smith, Baroness McGregor-Smith

Shami Chakrabarti, Baroness Chakrabarti

Shas Sheehan, Baroness Sheehan

Tariq Ahmad, Baron Ahmad of Wimbledon

Zahida Manzoor, Baroness Manzoor

Summary: 44 - 3 + 11 = 52

Pola Uddin is on the list in the PDF as Manzila Pola Uddin

I'll leave it up to someone else to figure out who should be where :)

Sorry for the poor layout, esp. the indentation and spacing - I'm not familiar with WP markup.

Scartboy (talk) 22:49, 11 November 2017 (UTC)

Thanks, Scartboy. This is very helpful. My mistake with Uddin - I had presumed the table in the PDF was searchable, but it turns out it isn't. If you take people from your missing list, though, you can find them in previous editions of the PDF. For example, Ribeiro is in the 2016 edition. Perhaps we could add a sentence along the lines of "However, previous editions of the House of Commons Library publication have included other current members of the Lords who are not included in this figure"? Another option would be to contact the Commons Library to ask for an explanation. Cordless Larry (talk) 08:22, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Hi Cordless, I've had a further look at the data (I'm getting far more familiar with UK Peers than I, as a foreigner, would have ever expected :). In respect to the three peers in the PDF who are missing from the WP list, one, Oona King, is on a sabbatical from the Lords.

The Commons PDF seems to have simply taken the names from the list on http://www.obv.org.uk/our-communities/profiles/peers. BTW, the Commons PDF also copied the website's typo in Haleh Afshar's name (they have Haleh Ashfar).

I suggest putting a note in the section on Peers, between the title and the table, mentioning that it includes a number of peers not listed in the current edition of the Commons PDF. Scartboy (talk) 21:45, 12 November 2017 (UTC)

Paul Scully

I removed Paul Scully from the list as he isn't listed in Parliament's reports on ethnic minority MPs. This was reverted by JimmyJoe87, who argues that the sources establish he is of Indian descent. This takes us back to the issue of how we define an ethnic minority politician. Previous discussions (e.g. #Chris Kelly and Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/List of ethnic minority politicians in the United Kingdom) established that we shouldn't be deciding who and who isn't from an ethnic minority, but should instead rely on whether sources describe them as a member of an ethnic minority. I haven't seen such a source for Scully. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:55, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

• Articles say that he is of Burmese and Indian descent, therefore making him an ethnic minority due to the people of these particular countries being Asian. I defer to your judgement on Chris Kelly though as I don't know who that is. JimmyJoe87 (talk) 11:59, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

But the problem is that we shouldn't be deciding which groups are ethnic minorities are which aren't. Using the same logic as you, we've had editors arguing in the past that Boris Johnson is an ethnic minority MP. I could similarly argue that Irish people are an ethnic minority in Britain, so all MPs with any family background in Ireland should be added. Oh, and Welsh people are a minority too, so we should add Welsh MPs. You see how it goes... The solution is only to add people when we have a source describing them as an ethnic minority MP. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:02, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

But Irish people are white, as are Welsh people, so therefore they aren't ethnic minorities, same with people from France, Germany etc. In the UK in order to be BME or Black minority ethnic, you're someone who isn't white (unless you're a gypsy) that's what the government says. JimmyJoe87 (talk) 13:07, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

It's not quite as simple as that. Some sources use "ethnic minority" as a synonym for "non-white", but others describe Poles, Irish, etc. as ethnic minorities. This official source, for instance, states "the largest non-UK born ethnic minority group was Other White (2.1 million people); the majority of this group (71%) arrived in the UK between 2001 and 2011, which reflects the substantial increase in migrants following the number of Central and Eastern European countries joining the European Union in 2004, this includes over half a million people (531,000) from Poland". Cordless Larry (talk) 13:44, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The Government describes ethnic minorities as those who are not white, that's a fact. The Government themselves do not describe Pole and Irish etc as ethnic minority. I think the easiest way to settle this would be to email Paul Scully himself. JimmyJoe87 (talk) 14:56, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

A government agency describes Poles as an ethnic minority in the link I provided above. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:58, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

But the Government itself does not. Hence why people of Polish descent aren't in this article. If you want I will give you Paul Scully's email and you can ask him directly? JimmyJoe87 (talk) 17:15, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

The Office of National Statistics, which I would have thought is about as definitive a source as you could get, uses "White British" as one of the ethnic groups it uses on censuses. "Other White" is explicitly used there, and the ONS remarks that the largest subset in that group is Polish. See here. Ritchie333 ^{(talk) (cont)} 16:50, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

• But the Government doesn't describe Poles as ethnic minorities, hence why they are not included in this article. JimmyJoe87 (talk) 17:19, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

It does in the source I linked to. But the real point is that we shouldn't engage in synthesis by taking one source for a definition, another describing someone's background, and then decide by combining them that the person is a member of an ethnic minority, where neither source states that about them. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:25, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

Well Parliament does not. =. Now I think the best thing here is to email Paul Scully and actually solve this issue once and for all. JimmyJoe87 (talk) 23:04, 25 March 2018 (UTC)

As I noted above, those parliamentary research briefings do not list Scully, so I'm not sure I understand your point there. E-mailing him isn't really going to help, unless he can point us to a published source describing him as an ethnic minority MP. Cordless Larry (talk) 19:44, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

I think Paul Scully saying whether he is an ethnic minority or not is far better than a published source since he is the person in question... JimmyJoe87 (talk) 20:54, 27 March 2018 (UTC)

Please read WP:NOR and WP:NOT#JOURNALISM. We don't go around conducting our own research. If in doubt, leave it out. --Iryna Harpy (talk) 00:48, 28 March 2018 (UTC)

So you're saying that going to the source directly is wrong? JimmyJoe87 (talk) 17:42, 29 March 2018 (UTC)

WP:VERIFY requires that readers can check published sources. Please stop re-introducing this material against consensus, JimmyJoe87. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:17, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

I have removed Paul Scully until evidence can be provided! JimmyJoe87 (talk) 16:25, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

Thanks. You also removed Bambos Charalambous, which I presume was a mistake, so I have restored him. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:30, 30 March 2018 (UTC)

You have now added a section "List of Members of Parliament of minority descent who are not ethnic minorities". Can I as what the inclusion criteria for this list are? Cordless Larry (talk) 11:39, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

They are of ethnic minority descent, so definitely should be included within the article or do you deny they are of a minority descent? JimmyJoe87 (talk) 11:47, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

What is the definition of minority descent being used here? And why are they described as not being ethnic minorities if they are of minority descent? Cordless Larry (talk) 11:49, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

They are of non-white descent, similar to all the other politicians in the article. Who knows why they are not being described as ethnic minorities so that is why i have created the separate section so that people are aware that they are of minority descent. JimmyJoe87 (talk) 12:09, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Well, that doesn't make much sense. I have never heard Cypriots described as non-white in the UK, for instance. Cordless Larry (talk) 12:16, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

So then why is Bambos on the list... JimmyJoe87 (talk) 14:27, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Because we have a source describing him as an ethnic minority MP. To take that as evidence that other people who are not described as ethnic minorities in reliable sources should be included is original research, which is not allowed (as has been explained above). Cordless Larry (talk) 15:57, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

So what you're saying is that even though we have sourced proof showing that they are of a minority descent, we should not include them at all in the article? JimmyJoe87 (talk) 17:46, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

This article is a list of ethnic minority politicians, so if we don't have sources describing them as ethnic minority politicians, then no, they shouldn't be included. Cordless Larry (talk) 17:50, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

Well that is why I created the separate section and made the heading clear because I knew you wouldn't be happy. So the section I created must stay because I have sourced information showing that they of minority descent and should be included in the article. JimmyJoe87 (talk) 21:31, 2 April 2018 (UTC)

As with other editors who have previously attempted to add original research to this article, JimmyJoe87 has now been blocked as a sockpuppet of Marquis de la Eirron. I'll remove the section concerned. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:26, 3 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 6 December 2018

Add 'See Also' link to 'Political Representation on 'Ethnic Groups in the United Kingdom' page. RishadA97 (talk) 09:26, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

 Done Linked to Ethnic groups in the United Kingdom#Political representation in § See also. Sam Sailor 10:56, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Actually, this is the main article for that topic, so I'm not sure we should be listing that section as a see also link. Cordless Larry (talk) 11:09, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

Additions

I have added the sourced and referenced additions of:

Martha Osamor, the two BME Bishops (both with references), the Police and Crime Commissioner and the images for the Northern Ireland, Scottish, Welsh and London Assembly politicians. I have also highlighted the politicians that are currently serving to differentiate them from those who are no longer serving. @Cordless Larry surely even you don't have a problem with sourced and referenced additions. Also, I removed the section because as you can see it clearly says "Unofficial" and is extremely out of date as the Conservatives, according the House of Lords, have more than 5 BME peers. Crimm432 (talk) 12:27, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

New additions incase you revert my edits

@Cordless Larry please could you add these additions if you revert my edits. I have sourced and referenced them all, so if you could put them in their correct dates of elevation to the House of Lords I would appreciate it, since they are members that have been left off:

List of ethnic minority Members of the House of Lords

Party		Portrait	Name	Year entered	Year left	Reason	Ethnicity
	Crossbench		Michael Nazir-Ali, Bishop of Rochester	1994	2009	Retired	British Pakistani
	Crossbench		John Sentamu, Archbishop of York	2002		Serving	Black British
	Labour		Martha Osamor, Baroness Osamor	2018		Serving	Black British

I have also added the images to these sections as for some reason, unlike earlier sections, they didn't have any photos:

List of ethnic minority London Assembly members

Party		Portrait	Name	Constituency	Year elected	Year left	Reason	Ethnicity
	Labour		Jennette Arnold	North East	2000		Serving	Black British
	Labour		Murad Qureshi	London-wide	2004	2016	Defeated	British Bangladeshi
	Conservative		James Cleverly	Bexley and Bromley	2008	2016	Retired	Black British/White British (Mixed Race)
	Labour		Navin Shah	Brent and Harrow	2008		Serving	British Indian
	Labour		Onkar Sahota	Ealing and Hillingdon	2012		Serving	British Indian
	Conservative		Kemi Badenoch	London-wide	2015	2017	Resigned	Black British
	Conservative	File:Shaun Bailey.jpg	Shaun Bailey	London-wide	2016		Serving	Black British
	Labour		Unmesh Desai	City and East	2016		Serving	British Indian
	Labour		Florence Eshalomi	Lambeth and Southwark	2016		Serving	Black British
	UKIP		David Kurten	London-wide	2016		Serving	Black British

List of ethnic minority Scottish Parliament members

Party		Portrait	Name	Constituency	Year elected	Year left	Reason	Ethnicity
	SNP		Bashir Ahmad	Glasgow	2007	2009	Died	British Pakistani
	SNP		Humza Yousaf	Glasgow	2011		Serving	British Pakistani
	Labour		Hanzala Malik	Glasgow	2011	2016	Defeated	British Pakistani/White British (Mixed Race)
	Labour		Anas Sarwar	Glasgow	2016		Serving	British Pakistani

List of ethnic minority Welsh Assembly members

Party		Portrait	Name	Constituency	Year elected	Year left	Reason	Ethnicity
	Plaid Cymru		Mohammad Asghar	South Wales East	2007	2009 (Crossed the floor in 2009)	Left Plaid Cymru, joined Conservative Party	British Pakistani
	Conservative			South Wales East	2009		Serving
	Labour		Vaughan Gething	Cardiff South and Penarth	2011		Serving	Black British/White British (Mixed Race)
	Conservative		Altaf Hussain	South Wales West	2015	2016	Defeated	British Indian

List of ethnic minority Northern Irish Assembly members

Party		Portrait	Name	Constituency	Year elected	Year left	Reason	Ethnicity
	Alliance		Anna Lo	Belfast South	2007	2016	Retired	British Chinese

I have also created this sections since it is now relevant for this page

List of ethnic minority Police and Crime Commissioners

Party		Portrait	Name	Constituency	Year elected	Year left	Reason	Ethnicity
	Labour		Hardyal Dhindsa	Derbyshire	2016		Serving	British Indian

Crimm432 (talk) 12:42, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

References

I have added the members of the Lords, albeit with better references. I am not willing to add the images, given your previous abuse of copyright, since this leads me to distrust whether these images can be used. I have not added the PCC, because we need a source describing him as a member of an ethnic minority. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:48, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

I've found a source for Hardyal Dhindsa, so will add him now. Cordless Larry (talk) 13:50, 6 December 2018 (UTC)

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Neil McEvoy

Neil McEvoy who is partially of Yemeni heritage hasn’t been included as serving in the Welsh Parliament — Preceding unsigned comment added by 92.26.112.178 (talk) 00:55, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

Are there sources describing him as being from an ethnic minority? Lots of politicians (and people in general) have a variety of different ancestries (e.g. Boris Johnson), but for the purposes of this list, we need sources confirming that they're considered to be from an ethnic minority. Cordless Larry (talk) 06:31, 13 July 2022 (UTC)

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Boris Johnson

I was wondering would it be much of a stretch if Boris Johnson was added. The reason I suggested this is because he is one-eighth Turkish. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:8807:C80B:2D00:DC09:2DC5:906B:A8D4 (talk) 00:41, 3 October 2022 (UTC)

Except he's not is he - he's one-sixteenth Turkish and one-sixteenth Circassian (located in the Russian Caucasus - European Russia - which would presumably be white). 2405:6E00:208D:BF5C:C554:BE0:B69D:1213 (talk) 16:21, 26 April 2023 (UTC)

Paul Scully MP

In the latest House of Commons publication about ethnic diversity in UK politics they have included Paul Scully, who is a Conservative MP: https://researchbriefings.files.parliament.uk/documents/SN01156/SN01156.pdf. The publication was first published in September 2022 and updated in November 2022 to reflect his inclusion. ClemsfordB (talk) 19:07, 22 January 2023 (UTC)

restructuring into being grouped by body to which the politician belongs to

• Scottish and Welsh cabinets members added
• Scottish and Welsh junior ministers added
• Deputy Mayors for London added
• Deputy Mayors of policing for combined authorities added

now grouped by body / type of body, then by position, so all the house of commons lists are together, all the house of lords lists are together, all the Greater London Authority lists are together. the combined authorities are a defined list of entities so they're grouped together in one section, and the single local authority mayors are largely separated. DotCoder (talk) 18:00, 2 August 2024 (UTC)

Sunak as LOTO

Should we add Sunak as LOTO as he was for the last few months? 92.17.254.91 (talk) 20:27, 2 November 2024 (UTC)