Talk:List of former sovereign states

Ideas for improvement from archived sections

• Add the hundreds of states that sprung up during the Russian Civil War; see: http://worldstatesmen.org/Russia_war.html
• Link to the entity a former state became or merged into (like Former countries in Europe after 1815)
• Somehow indicate states that continued with the same territory, but merely changed government.
  • Merge lists of annexed and dismembered states into main tables with fates listed.
• Add dates to states without them, for verification that they are in the correct section (and to help readers)

Earliest dates for inclusion

Several regions/modern countries (Britain, Iberia, France, Germany) have their various predecessor states listed back to the fall of the Roman Empire or thereabouts, but others (e.g. Russia, Italy) only list predecessors from the Early Modern, or even 19th Century. Is there a deliberate reason for this, or is it just no-one has got around to adding them? Also, is there a reason the Selucid Empire is missing from Persia? 62.172.108.23 (talk) 17:21, 5 December 2012 (UTC)

Everything before the Early Modern period is on List of pre-modern states, including Seleucid Empire. -- Beland (talk) 20:31, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

Modern states?

Reading this article one can notice that Frankish Empire was an state of modern france. I disagree.

There is a section for former medieval kingdoms. Modern states list it is too long. It shouldn't be made longer by adding more medieval states. They have their own category. I removed the most obvious medieval ones from the list and only left the ones which last until modern times. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Caquinoh (talk • contribs) 00:00, 14 December 2012 (UTC)

Confederation of the Equator, Juliana Republic, etc...

I'd like to point out that the Juliana Republic never existed. Rebells took a small town in southern Santa Catarina province and "created" that republic. The government retook the town a few months later. The rebels never conquered the province's capital, or any other town.

The same applies to the Confederation of the Equator and to the Riograndense Republic. The rebels had a few towns in their control, but they never managed to rule over an entire province. --Lecen (talk) 22:33, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

All have since been removed. -- Beland (talk) 20:32, 15 June 2013 (UTC)

County of Foix

The County of Foix may only have become a crown land in the 17th century but it has been a fief of France throughout. If Foix is t be listed we could list all of France's fiefs. Gerard von Hebel (talk) 19:44, 29 October 2013 (UTC)

Bold removals

I've WP:BOLDly removed several bulleted items which mentioned the Philippines from this article because, in my understanding, these items do not meet the stated criteria for inclusion. Please discuss at the the relevant point below, where I've copied the individual items I removed and described the article sections/subsections from which they were removed. If I have been too bold in some or all of these removals, reinsert them. However, please discuss reinsertions at the relevant point below.

I have only removed bulleted items mentioning the Philippines, but I suspect that a number of other items may not meet these inclusion criteria. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Inclusion criteria

For ease of reference, I'll reproduce the relevant inclusion criteria below:

The criteria for inclusion in this list is similar to that of the List of states with limited recognition. To be included here, a polity must have claimed statehood and either:

• had de facto control over a territory, a population, a government, a capacity to enter into relations with other states, or
• have been recognised as a state by at least one other state.

As I understand it, the inclusion criteria are met by either satisfying all three criteria in the first bulleted item or by satisfying the single criterion in the second bulleted item.

Removed from Asia -> In the Philippines

• • Tagalog Republic (1895-1898)

This seems to refer to the Katipunan insurgency under Andres Bonifacio described in the first part of the wikilinked article, members of which decided to style themselves as a national government in late August of 1896. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

• • First Philippine Republic (1898-1901) - fell to United States

This refers to an insurgency under Emilio Aguinaldo which had been largely inactive since December 1897 with its leadership in exile in Hong Kong and Singapore (see Pact of Biak-na-Bato), which became active again in 1898 during the Spanish-American War, which declared independence from Spain during that war, which styled itself as a constitutional government after sovereignty over the Philippines was passed from Spain to the United States in the Treaty of Paris (1898), and which fought an unsuccessful war of independence against the U.S. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 23:15, 11 October 2014 (UTC)

Removed from Oceania

(Note: The Philippines is located in Asia, not in Oceania)

• Philippine Islands – A territorial government under United States sovereignty in 1901-1935. Succeeded by the Commonwealth of the Philippines, also under United States sovereignty. Later independent as the Republic of the Philippines(1946).

This does not meet the inclusion criteria.

• Commonwealth of the Philippines – a territory of the USA, which became independent in 1946 as the Republic of the Philippines.

• Spanish East Indies – Spanish colony in the Philippines and in Micronesia until 1898. After the Spanish-American War, portions were ceded to the United States while the rest were sold to Germany.

Removed from Modern states and territories by type -> Former colonies, possessions, protectorates and territories -> North America

• New Spain – The Spanish empire, from 1521 to 1821, the Americas with borders from California to the Carolinas, from Curaçao to Costa Rica, and from Colombia to Chile. The colony included Guam and the Philippines in Asia until 1898, Cuba and Puerto Rico in the Caribbean until 1898, parts of West Africa like Western Sahara, Liberia/Sierra Leone and Equatorial Guinea; and Oceania such as Micronesia and Solomon Islands. Spain briefly ruled over Portugal and its Portuguese colonies like Brazil, and throughout Africa and Asia from 1580 to 1640.

Removed from Modern states and territories by type -> Former colonies, possessions, protectorates and territories -> Oceania

(Note: The Philippines is located in Asia, not in Oceania)

• Philippine Islands – A territorial government under United States sovereignty in 1901-1935. Succeeded by the Commonwealth of the Philippines, also under United States sovereignty. Later independent as the Republic of the Philippines(1946).

• Commonwealth of the Philippines – a territory of the USA, which became independent in 1946 as the Republic of the Philippines.

• Spanish East Indies – Spanish colony in the Philippines and in Micronesia until 1898. After the Spanish-American War, portions were ceded to the United States while the rest were sold to Germany.

Philippines: Sultanate of Rajah Buayan

I have moved Sultanate of Rajah Buayan here from the list of former sovereign states in the Philippines. Sultanate of Rajah Buayan currently redirects to Rajah Buayan, Maguindanao, which is a nonpolitical article about a 6th class municipality in the province of Maguindanao, Philippines.

From what I see here, this seems to refer to what is called there the Rajah Buayan Sultanate from 1899 to 1910 (the time of the 18th Sultan) and probably prior to that. The Philippines was under U.S. sovereignty from December 10, 1898 until July 4, 1946 and under Spanish sovereignty for some 300 years prior to that. There were insurgencies during the American period -- notably the Philippine-American War but, also and separately during and after that major conflict, in Mindanao and Tawi-Tawi. Those insurgencies still continue (or, if continue is not a good characterization, they re-erupt from time to time) up to the present. I'm guessing that there were probably related insurgencies during the Spanish period as well.

From what I can see, the Sultanate of Rajah Buayan is not now a sovereign state and probably has not been at least within the past 400+ years. Also, it looks to me as if the redirect at Sultanate of Rajah Buayan should be removed. See also Talk:Sultanate of Rajah Buayan#Merge into the municipality article? I may replace that rdirect with a stub article, or I might not get around to doing that. Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 03:42, 28 October 2014 (UTC)

What is this article supposed to list?

Even before you get to the actual list of states, this article seems confused as to what it is actually supposed to be about. Is it:

• All extinct states (given that List of extinct states redirects here)?
• Former sovereign states (as implied by the title)?
• Historical sovereign states and non-sovereign states (as implied by the first line of the lede)?
• Sovereign states, countries, nations, empires or territories (as stated by the second line of the lede)?
• Recognized states (as per the criteria for inclusion)?
• Post-medieval states (given that all older ones have been hived off to other articles)?

Iapetus (talk) 16:16, 6 December 2016 (UTC)

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Catalonia keeps appearing

Catalonia keeps appearing as having been sovereign for a few days in October 2017. It was not. The regional government issued a declaration of independence, but even they admit it was a purely symbolic act (and they immediately "suspended" it in any case). There was never a Catalan state exercising sovereign authority. If even the government of the putative state does not recognize it, it was not a sovereign state in any sense. Hogweard (talk) 15:47, 1 December 2017 (UTC)

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IP edit

Dear IP,

please explain the reason of the mass removals. Thank you.(KIENGIR (talk) 18:34, 9 September 2020 (UTC))

Much of the "Sovereign States" listed were not in fact sovereign states and therefore do not meet the criteria of this article - I P — Preceding unsigned comment added by 67.168.92.239 (talk) 23:34, 9 September 2020 (UTC)

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The asserted sovereignty of some states listed here was generally unrecognized.

This line in the lead section came from this August 2020 edit, the edit summary of which suggested that the entries to which this applies should be flagged individually, with clarifying footnotes. Any objections? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 13:25, 7 October 2020 (UTC)

IP edits

Dear IPs,

why are you keeping on adding dynasties which are not states?(KIENGIR (talk) 19:43, 7 October 2020 (UTC))

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Flags

I stumbled across thsi when i noticed the so called flag of the avarian khagnate wich I thought was unrealistic after doing some digging and using some google translate I realised it was desingned by a russian flag designer when looking for where the flag was featured I found it here and have found many flags from countries that existed in the 13th century I think that this age offers a way to get rid of theese fake flags because a majority of them will be here so if we go througth all the flags and find there sources we can delte the fake flags.Joseph Pelorus (talk)

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Fiji governments

This edit caught my eye. It unreverted an addition, saying: Undid revision 1044927802 by Wowzers122 (talk) The government changed in 1987, not the country.. Based on a look at the initial sentence if the Sovereign state article, it seems to me that the revert ought to be undone. However, the initial sentence of this article puts some qualifiers on that. Also, from a look at the Fiji article, it seems that the situation re Fiji is more complicated than just the 1987 change. I'm no expert, but it looks like this needs discussion here. by regular editors of this article with more topical expertise than I.

Discussion? Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 10:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC) Wtmitchell (talk) (earlier Boracay Bill) 10:25, 18 September 2021 (UTC)

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Fundamental change to this article is needed

Many of the so called previous sovereign states are still there but with a change of government or a change of constitution creating a new name. To use the latest addition as an example: Afghanistan as a sovereign state is the same now as it was a year ago, or twenty years ago. Just because a new more radical change of government has occured does not alter that. I think there needs to be a much clearer definition of what should be added to this list and a simultaneous removal of at least half of the listed states. Roger 8 Roger (talk) 20:31, 21 November 2021 (UTC)

Indeed, @R8R. I stumbled on this list via recent changes. The lead defines what is a sovereign state, but it doesn't say what it means to be considered "former". ⁓ Pelagic ( messages ) 03:38, 23 January 2022 (UTC)

I agree, many entries currently on the list are really just former governments of current states. The state itself existed before and after the date listed. It is also not a list every of possible former official name of a state. Example: "Republic of _____" becoming "Federal Republic of _____" is not a new state, just a new official name of the same state. SimonX (talk) 11:04, 29 May 2022 (UTC)

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Split Request

I think this page should be split, can someone do this plz 2600:1700:6180:6290:68A2:D5A2:9C6A:3276 (talk) 23:23, 3 May 2022 (UTC)

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Recommend removing flags

After seeing the unsourced flags I just removed ([1], [2]) and all the Commons notices above, I would strongly recommend that all these mini-flag icons simply be removed. They're unnecessary for the list and they just draw disproportionate attention to some links over others, which is incidentally the reason why flags are discouraged in infoboxes. I also note that a similar list article, List of pre-modern states, indeed does not include flags.

Historical flags are also a very different matter from modern flags and unsourced or WP:OR historical flags are pervasive on Wikipedia (or in Wiki Commons). The flags included here are presumably whatever happened to be included in another article at one point or another, so inevitably there are deprecated or unsourced versions. It seems impractical to keep track of all this here, so sticking to links and leaving the content to the linked articles might avoid problems. R Prazeres (talk) 18:24, 5 June 2023 (UTC)

Paris Commune

@Malios2: Wa State makes decisions autonomously but is not sovereign. Do you have evidence that the Paris Commune claimed statehood? –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 20:30, 30 April 2024 (UTC)

Did the Provisional Government of Milan Declare itself a Nation? Did the Novgorod Republic? or the Military Dictatorship of Mughan? I'm sure they didn't consider themselves a Nation. but they didn't deny it. Did the Paris Commune Deny it? Malios2 (talk) 13:30, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Probably not, but that is irrelevant to the criteria for this list, which include claiming statehood. Does modern Paris deny it? Or how about Castelmoron-d'Albret (French commune with the smallest area)? Should we add that to the list because it does not specifically reject its own statehood? –Gluonz ^{talk contribs} 15:57, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

The Paris Commune didn't have a suzerain. It had the highest authority over the land it controlled. And as far as I'm aware didn't answer to France.

Sovereign state Malios2 (talk) 19:16, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

However I Reversed my decision this morning because of the recognition criteria. Malios2 (talk) 19:44, 1 May 2024 (UTC)

Pre-unified Yemen

I see that both North Yemen (Yemen Arab Republic) and South Yemen qualify to be in the list of modern states and territories by geography, but before I go ahead and add them I just wanted to make sure if I’m right or if I’m missing something. |MK| 📝 23:16, 14 June 2024 (UTC)

I’ve added both countries to the list. |MK| 📝 14:07, 17 June 2024 (UTC)