Talk:List of longest rivers of the United States (by main stem)

slight error

Surely the Smoky Hill River belongs on the list, unless the length is in error... Shannon^talk _contribs 23:01, 7 June 2011 (UTC)

Kansas is about 400 miles wide. The Smoky Hill ends at Junction City. Even with meanders, the main stem can't be 500 miles (I think). The Smoky Hill article seems to be counting more than the main stem length. Finetooth (talk) 06:36, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

On the other hand, the Sheyenne River belongs on this list if Ken Gallagher's number is correct. Finetooth (talk) 06:43, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

The length on the Smoky Hill River page is referenced to Britannica, which says in part, "The main stream then continues in a generally eastward direction to Ellsworth, bending north at Lindsborg and northeast at Salina; it then flows past Solomon and Abilene to join the Republican River at Junction City, after a course of 560 miles (900 km), to form the Kansas River." Perhaps they mean something different by 'main stem', but still... Pfly (talk) 00:18, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I think their wording is vague and that they are counting upstream tribs that start in Colorado. Finetooth (talk) 02:37, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Here's a source that says the main stem is about 400 miles long. It's an encyclopedia published in 1912. Neither Brittanica or this source meets the WP:RS guidelines, but 400 looks more likely to me than 560. Finetooth (talk) 02:44, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

The USGS puts its source at 38.9502787, -102.5801964, which is quite a bit into Colorado. And you can see in this topo map, [1], that the "south fork" is labeled simply "Smoky Hill River" clear to its source. Still, even so, you are probably right about it being less than 500 miles long. At best it seems borderline for this list. So hey, what's next, list of longest rivers of Mexico? Pfly (talk) 03:16, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Hmmm. I hadn't thought to check the USGS coords for this one. Something similar came up in a discussion of the Susquehanna, which has a north branch and a west branch. Turns out that the north branch is a colloquial name but not official; the official Susquehanna includes the north branch and heads up in New York state. That made it almost but not quite long enough to make this list. Could be that the Smoky Hill will make it after all. Good catch on the part of you and Shannon. Finetooth (talk) 03:27, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

And, yes, Mexico is next. Finetooth (talk) 03:35, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

I admit I have a fondness for the Smoky Hill River. It flows through one of the prettier parts of Kansas (which might not be saying a lot, but it's something!). Actually the Solomon River flows through the more scenic bits of the Smoky Hills. Anyway, let me know when you have something up for Mexico and/or could use some help. I'd jump in! Seems like Mexico might be harder than the US and Canada to do--good sources on, um, sources (of streams), lengths, even what names are applied to what reaches, might be tricky to come by. Pfly (talk) 04:39, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Thanks. I've got it barely started in User:Finetooth/Sandbox3. Benke and Cushing have a bit about Mexico rivers, but pp. 36 and 37 of this document seem to have a lot of stuff. And Shannon suggested checking the International Boundary & Water Commission gauge pages. This should be enough to make something substantial. Finetooth (talk) 05:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Map

The map looks good. A minor problem is that the Smoky Hill River probably should be deleted, and the Sheyenne should probably be added. If you hold off on the Sheyenne a bit, I'll ask Ken to doublecheck. Also, would the map look better in a larger size at the bottom, a la the one you did for the Canada list? Finetooth (talk) 23:25, 8 June 2011 (UTC)

Oh- sorry about Smoky Hill, I don't know why I added it. Will do. Shannon^talk _contribs 02:46, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

No worries (unless I'm wrong about the Smoky Hill length) :-). The map looks good on the bottom. (It looked good on the top too, but it displays really well in the bigger size, I think.) I sent a note to Ken about the Sheyenne. I keep trying to learn how to use the National Map, but I find it impenetrable. Someone who can use it can probably settle the Sheyenne and Smoky Hill questions. Finetooth (talk) 03:06, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

If Ken doesn't get to it first, I'll see about extracting the lengths of those two from the National Map datasets. Pfly (talk) 03:17, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

That would be swell, thanks. The NHD probably trumps any other sources. Finetooth (talk) 03:30, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Sheyenne

Ken has responded thus: "I double-checked, this time using an improved method, and got 591 miles (951 km). Instead of interactively calculating the length on the National Map website, I downloaded the dataset into a GIS and ran a summary on the river's flowline. The length applies to the river's course as described in the article, from its source north of McCluskey to its confluence with the Red River." I will add the Sheyenne to the list today. Shannon, could you add it to the map? Finetooth (talk) 16:09, 9 June 2011 (UTC)

Yes I will. Shannon^talk _contribs 00:06, 10 June 2011 (UTC)

Smoky Hill River

I finally downloaded the NHD data pertaining to the Smoky Hill River (the server took most of a day to get around to emailing me the datafiles!). Unlike some NHD streams, which not uncommonly have gaps with stream reaches whose name is blank in the data, or with complex braids that need to be teased out, the Smoky Hill River came out perfectly selected from a query on the name. The result, 926.508 kilometres (575.705 mi). I'll update the Smoky Hill River page with this new info (the page was close, claiming 560 miles). I think I'll round it off to a nice even 575 miles. It was also clear that when mapped at high resolution, the river is very meandery (is that a word?), in some reaches almost absurdly so. Pfly (talk) 08:40, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Also, there seem to be some US federal photos of the river that look a bit better than the one on the Smoky Hill River page currently (File:Smokey-hill-river-cattle-drive.jpg. For example, [2] and [3]. I'm guessing weather.gov is a federal source. I'll check and if it is it, upload those photos to the Commons. Pfly (talk) 08:58, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Okay, found a semi-decent federal photo and uploaded to the Commons, in the infobox at Smoky Hill River, for what it's worth. Pfly (talk) 09:29, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Pfly, I know how busy you are IRL, and I really appreciate your taking the time to do this. I'll add the Smoky Hill to the list later today. Shannon, thanks to you too, who noticed the Smoky Hill absence in the first place, and who added the Sheyenne to the map recently (which I somehow missed seeing). Finetooth (talk) 16:18, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Smoky Hill added as #30 with all columns filled. Finetooth (talk) 18:36, 14 June 2011 (UTC)

Wabash River and others

Hey you guys, I think you missed one: the Wabash River. According to Ken Gallager and the NHD, it squeaks in at 503 miles long. LittleMountain5 14:46, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Here's another sourced to the NHD: the Niobrara River, 568 miles long. LittleMountain5 14:54, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Another, unsourced one: the Porcupine River, 569 miles long. LittleMountain5 15:08, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Two more, unsourced: the Innoko River and the Koyukuk River, both "approximately" 500 miles long. LittleMountain5 15:12, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for pointing these out. Trusting Ken and the other NHD researchers, I'll add the Wabash. Other sources that I remember checking (don't remember what they were) put it very close to 500. The Niobrara I had never considered, but since it's now NHD sourced, I'll add it too (or anybody can). The Porcupine main stem, as I recall, is shorter than 500. I considered the Innoko and Koyukuk too, but I could not find an RS to support the claims. My filter was "when in doubt, leave it out". Could someone check the NHD for the Innoko and Koyukuk lengths? I have given up trying to do that myself. Finetooth (talk) 16:05, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I apologize for the nasty edit conflict I've inevitably brought you; I didn't realize you were adding the Wabash as well. LittleMountain5 16:21, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

No worries. Thanks for adding the Wabash details. Finetooth (talk) 17:51, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Yes, Rivers of North America says the Wabash is 772 kilometers (480 miles) long, and I've seen others that say 491 miles. I can't find much on the Alaskan rivers, NHD will have to suffice. I've tried multiple times to figure out the National Map and NHD in general, but alas, I guess it's just not for me. I don't know if I don't have the right software or what, but it just never works out without me adding hundreds of tiny stream segments together manually. Frustrating. LittleMountain5 16:38, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I would never have spotted the dry-country creeks missing from List of longest streams of Oregon. It took a cartographer, Kmusser, to track down the exact lengths. Pfly might also have spotted them eventually or Ken Gallager since they both use the NHD. This is a collaborative project, thank goodness. I have pretty much decided to let the NHD to others and to tackle other problems. If I could take a formal course on using the National Map, I'd probably pass, but I seem to get too frustrated by it to continue without a tutor. Finetooth (talk) 17:51, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

By the way, yesterday I moved List of longest rivers of Mexico into main article space. It's less complete and polished than the Oregon, U.S., and Canada lists, but it includes RS data that did not seem to be in the individual Mexico river articles. I'm hoping that these lists can be used to improve individual articles, where appropriate; if the list sources are good, they can be cloned to support identical claims in the river articles. Finetooth (talk) 17:59, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I have added the Wabash and Niobrara to the map; and readded the Smoky Hill. I knew that one belonged, haha. Shann_ºn^Talk 18:53, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

I ment 'updated' in the previous edit summary, ... Shann_ºn^Talk 18:54, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Having a bit of trouble uploading the goddamned file, so it might be a bit late. Shann_ºn^Talk 18:57, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Looks fine. Thank you for catching that and adding the new ones. Finetooth (talk) 19:29, 5 July 2011 (UTC)

Main Stem

The article clearly states that it will use the definition of main stem as criteria, but lists the Missouri River separate from the Mississippi River. In reality, the main stem of the Missouri-Mississippi River system is the Missouri River through to the Mississippi River downstream from Saint Louis). If the article is in fact cataloguing longest rivers by name, the article's introduction should be changed to reflect this. Caleb (talk) 08:34, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

The Missouri is a tributary of the Mississippi. It has its own main stem, which is not the same as the Mississippi's main stem. Finetooth (talk) 17:00, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

In Modern American nomenclature the Missouri is a a tributary of the Mississippi, but in hydrology it is not. Three basic methods in analyzing what a tributary consist of defining by length, by discharge, or by main stem. If measured by length, the Upper Mississippi would be a tributary of the Mississippi-Missouri-Jefferson river system. If measured by discharge, the main trunk of the river would actually be the Ohio River, as it carries a greater amount of water at Cairo than the Mississippi. This article states that it is measuring the main stem of the river, which is admittedly the hardest definition of a river to calculate. I can assure you though, that the main stem of the Mississippi-Missouri river system is the Missouri River. As a quick example, take a look at [this map]. Using only the visible streams as a cutoff point, we can do a quick calculation to find the Strahler number of each stream. By the time the Platte and Missouri Rivers merge, the Missouri has reached Strahler number 4, while the Mississippi is only Strahler number 2 at its confluence with the Missouri. Using a lower and lower cutoff for streams to be counted, the Missouri River continues to classified as the main stem. I realize that on the main stem page it has a picture of the Mississippi labelled as the main stem, but this is a mistake. The bolded section of the river is merely the branch that carries the name Mississippi. As measuring the main stem of a river can be increasingly difficult, I'd recommend changing the name of the article to List of longest named rivers of the United States to better reflect the work that has been completed. Caleb (talk) 18:39, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Thanks for the explanation. I think you are suggesting that "main stem" is determined by calculating the highest possible Strahler number for the last downstream segment of a river and by calling the path of that calculation the "main stem". It's entirely possible that you are right and that I've misunderstood the definitions of "main stem" that I've been relying on. Your suggested revised title seems accurate in its own way, and it seems to cover all cases. If your implied definition of "main stem" is correct, the lead image caption is indeed wrong and so is the explanation of "main stem" in the lead. Before I change the title or text, I'd like to be sure that what you are saying (if I understand it correctly) about "main stem" is correct. Can you point me to a reliable source that defines "main stem" in the way you are suggesting? If you can, I'd use it to improve main stem as well as this longest-rivers list. Finetooth (talk) 20:23, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Follow-up comments after some more research: According to Rivers of North America (p. 367), the Illinois River at its mouth has a river (Strahler) order of 9. It meets the Mississippi above the confluence of the Mississippi and the Missouri. The Mississippi at its confluence with the Missouri must therefore have at least a river order of 9, not 2, as you suggest above. Below the confluence with the Missouri, the Mississippi has a river order of 10 (Rivers of North America, p. 332). The Missouri River at its mouth has a river order of 9 (Rivers of North America, p. 469). Therefore, the river order of the Mississippi at its confluence with the Missouri is 9. The river order for the final segment of the Mississippi comes out the same whether you follow the upper Mississippi to its headwaters or whether you follow the Missouri to its headwaters. The river order would therefore (to me at least) not seem to be a useful way to define "main stem". But perhaps you were not suggesting that it was; I'm not quite sure. Finetooth (talk) 23:47, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

White River (Arkansas)

The source of the White is actually in Arkansas, not Missouri. It flows north from it's source (south of Fayetteville) and enters southern Missouri, then turns south-east and enters Arkansas. 72.204.15.161 (talk) 18:51, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

Good catch. Thank you. I have fixed the error. The watershed map File:White River AR.png supports what you have said. Finetooth (talk) 20:38, 4 January 2012 (UTC)

You fixed the "source" but the "States, Provinces, ..." column is still innacurate since you left Missouri out of it. It should be listed as "Arkansas(s), Missouri, Arkansas(m)" or the less elegant "Arkansas(s, m), Missouri". Interesting factoid FYI (I hope that is allowed here): The Buffalo River is a tributary of the White. Their source is only a few miles apart as (according to Wikipedia) 5 rivers or major creeks radiate outwards from a 3 mile radius centered in the Boston Mountains. The Buffalo (the first US river designated as "Wild and Scenic") flows 150 miles east, while the White loops hundreds of miles northeast into Missouri and south back into Arkansas, where the Buffalo finally joins the White. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.75.0.9 (talk) 04:18, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Thank you. That inaccuracy is now fixed too. The factoid is interesting and might be added to Buffalo National River, which needs a lot of work in other ways. Perhaps you could help? Finetooth (talk) 18:25, 9 February 2013 (UTC)

Numbers

"two percent is" and not "two percent are".
Numbers that are measurements are singular, not plural. 98.81.3.79 (talk) 22:26, 14 July 2013 (UTC)

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