Talk:List of windmills in the United Kingdom

Categorisation of windmill articles

copied from User talk:Mjroots and User talk:MRSC (This is in relation to windmills surviving in the current London Boroughs)

I have re-added the mills back to their historical counties. The reason for this is a historical one - there are no windmills that survive in the area covered by the County of London as it existed before the changes to boundaries in 1888. All those surviving now were, until 1888, in the various counties that surrounded London. This is why I created the dual templates. Even today, the mills are considered as belonging to their historical counties. Brixton mill, the closest to central London, was a Surrey mill for the whole of its wind-powered working life. The London windmills template is for those mills currently in the area covered by the councils that are part of London, but the mills are also covered by the templates for their historical counties (Herts doesn't exist yet). Both templates are provided to make navigation between mill articles easier. I hope this explanation is sufficient and that you now understand why they are set up how they are. Mjroots (talk) 07:55, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Categories tend to use current subdivisions, so articles in Category:Buildings and structures in London and even Category:Former buildings and structures of London use the current boundaries, not ancient ones. Mills that are no longer working are often still open as museums in the here and now, so should be unambiguously categorised by current location. Perhaps a category scheme based around operational dates could be included as well as the location categories? MRSC • Talk 08:17, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I appreciate what you say, which is why I've got no objection to the category of Windmills in London. However, if you look at the sources used, you will see that the various mills are associated with their traditional counties. Hence the compromise of having both - the modern and the traditional. Without the traditional, there could well be comments of "why isnt xxxx mill included in this county?". I hope to vastly increase the coverage of mills on Wikipedia, and am trying to get a Wikiproject up and running on Mills. Once the project has been created, the subject of historical/traditional coverage can be addressed, along with other issues, such as naming conventions. Mjroots (talk) 08:34, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I am sure we can work out something that will work. This affects a range of historic buildings and structures, which may have been operational in one era and remain, perhaps converted for some other use. The approach should be consistent across all these types. In this context, I'm not seeing windmills as a special case. MRSC • Talk 08:44, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

end of copied section

As you can see, there is a problem here. The historic counties have changed over the centuries owing to the expansion of London. I favour a dual approach, with the modern and the traditional both being covered. This really needs to involve WikiProjects for London and the affected counties - Kent, Surrey, Middx, Herts, Essex - although not all counties have wikiprojects. Mjroots (talk) 09:00, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

In articles and localised lists it is right that the historical locality context is given, that is not in dispute - as in articles such as Vauxhall Gardens (which is not, and should not be, categorised as "in Surrey"). It is the issue of categories I am most concerned with as these are currently ambiguous/contradictory, as are the templates. I've been looking at Mill town for guidance as this is also affected by boundary changes. Apparent contradictions need to be explained, that is all. MRSC • Talk 09:05, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I've added a statement to the categories explaining the reason for the duplication. Am not sure if it's possible to do same with template though. Mjroots (talk) 18:51, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

Having paused for some thought, I see that the categorisation by former areas and boundaries is against the Wikipedia:Naming_conventions_(places)#Counties_of_Britain policy. I suggest the following action to put this right:

1. Categories amended to use the current subdivisions and article text to detail any changes/ambiguity
2. Templates amended to reflect the categories
3. County-based list articles to detail both current and historic boundaries, with an explanation of any changes/ambiguity

These changes will conform to the norms used in other buildings and structures articles and will comply with policy. MRSC • Talk 10:19, 9 June 2008 (UTC)

The categorisation is now complete for all articles in Category:Windmills in England. MRSC • Talk 06:33, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Templates

I think we should consider combining these in some way.

{{Sussex Windmills}} {{Windmills and Windpumps of East Anglia}} {{Surrey Windmills}} {{EssexWindmills}} {{London Windmills}} {{Kent Windmills}}

Either produce an "all England" template divided into collapsible sections, or perhaps a regional (or groups of regions) split?

Or possibly a split by type? MRSC • Talk 09:28, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

Following up on this, these are now combined into {{Windmills in England}}. MRSC • Talk 20:52, 18 June 2008 (UTC)

How this list is organised

There is a discussion relating to the organisation of this list here Wikipedia_talk:MILLS#List_of_windmills_in_Middlesex. MRSC (talk) 18:49, 27 July 2009 (UTC)