Talk:Lists of sovereign states and dependent territories

Style note: Wikipedia:WikiProject Countries/Inclusion and Ranking criteria for Lists of Countries

List of Countries?

What happened to the List of Countries that was a list of countries (ie sovereign states plus others)? That was really useful, and now it seems to have gone.210.10.106.195 (talk) 05:16, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

The List of countries page was deleted. All of the countries that appeared on that list can be found somewhere on the Sovereign state page. That article has a far better way of presenting information and doesnt come with the added dispute of what makes a country and where it belongs on a page. BritishWatcher (talk) 13:26, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Strictly speaking, it was redirected, not deleted. This means that when you type "List of countries" into the search box - or if you go to the web address http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries - the software will send you here. OTOH, the contents of that article - in all its forms - is still available publicly in the history of the redirect. Pfainuk talk 14:10, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Thanks for explaining that more clearly. If you have some time in the future Pfainuk could you please take a look at the different anthem lists that are currently on wiki. It seems to me the anthem pages have exactly the same problem as the countries pages did until the recent change. BritishWatcher (talk) 15:33, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Well, it's a sad day. There used to be a useful and interesting list of countries, including sovereign states but also other entities that were not sovereign but had aspects of 'country-hood', such as Hong Kong which is recognised in internatinal treaties, along with detailed explanations of why entities might, or might not, be considered acceptable for inclusion. Now all that's been wiped away and replaced by a list of lists that, really, isn't very interesting. Having looked through the talk pages on the history of List of Countries, there doesn't seem to be any particular reason for its deletion other than that people couldn't agree whether the constitutent countries of the UK should be treated as separate countries or not. Ah well. 210.10.106.195 (talk) 06:16, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Hong kong like all other dependent regions / autonomous regions / "countries of the UK" get mentioned on the sovereign state list, which was by far the more organised and better presented list. Hong kong may be recognized by international treaties but it is not equal to a sovereign state so it is placed next to china. ALL the data this page once contained was on the List of sovereign states page making this list useless.

It wasnt deleted because people couldnt decide if constitutent countries of the UK belong on the list, although that is one of many examples which created problems. BritishWatcher (talk) 09:38, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

why not include Gross Domestic Product (nominal) [2006-2050] (in US$ millions) from BRIC page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.193.204.151 (talk) 08:47, 28 December 2009 (UTC)

New Discussion

A discussion has been started at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Countries/Lists of countries which could affect the inclusion criteria and title of this and other lists of countries. Editors are invited to participate. Pfainuk talk 11:59, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Comparison of 'size of bailout' between countries

Bailouts of "private" firms by governments are proliferating. It would be very interesting to see comparative data on the size of sovereign bailouts between various developed-economy countries; we could start with the G-7 and expand it as good sources are found for other countries. I'm thinking of something like absolute size of the bailout to date and size as a proportion of GDP. I've read that the British and American bailouts are large as a percentage of GDP, while Switzerland is quite small. Anyone have good links for Germany? France? et al? I would be willing to help find sources and contribute to such an article. Where would be the best place to discuss the idea? N2e (talk) 22:55, 2 February 2009 (UTC)

Templates for deletion nomination of Template:Lists of countries

Template:Lists of countries has been nominated for deletion. You are invited to comment on the discussion at the template's entry on the Templates for Deletion page. Thank you. Cybercobra (talk) 06:51, 27 June 2009 (UTC)

Move request

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Not moved Mike Cline (talk) 14:36, 26 February 2012 (UTC)

---

• Lists of countries and territories → Lists of countries
• List of sovereign states and dependent territories by fertility rate → List of countries by fertility rate
• List of sovereign states and dependent territories by population density → List of countries by population density
• List of sovereign states and dependent territories by death rate → List of countries by death rate
• List of countries and territories by land borders → List of countries and territories by land borders
• List of sovereign states and dependent territories by continent → List of countries by continent
• List of sovereign states by current account balance → List of countries by current account balance
• List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe → List of countries in Europe
• List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Eurasia → List of countries in Eurasia
• List of sovereign states and dependent territories by birth rate → List of countries by birth rate
• List of countries and territories by land and maritime borders → List of countries by land and maritime borders
• List of countries and territories by maritime boundaries → List of countries by maritime boundaries

– To keep in-line with the majority of lists on Wikipedia. The word countries covers both sovereign states and dependent territories. These are exceptions on Wikipedia. They should be renamed to facilitate navigation. 61.18.170.139 (talk) 18:02, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

• Comment The reason some of these are at "Sovereign states and dependent territories" is because due to the looseness of the word country, many users thought places like England, Wales, Catalonia, etc. should be included on lists titled "List of countries etc." CMD (talk) 19:44, 17 February 2012 (UTC)
• Oppose/Comment There is not always a clear distinction or definition of what a country, state, territory, comprises. For example: The USA, is in one sense 50 independent countries that have "delegated" portions of sovereignty to the "federation". (A very simplified explanation) Using only 'country' could limit or expand the list beyond the intended scope of the article.--UnQuébécois (talk) 21:23, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

This argument applies to just about any terminology you choose, including "sovereign states", "dependent territories", "territories", "countries and territories" and so on. But note that the MOS (WP:SAL) makes it clear that it is the inclusion criteria in the lede at the top of the article, and not the title of the article, that determines what belongs in the article. Similarly, per WP:PRECISION, we only need to be as precise in the article title as is necessary to distinguish these from other articles.

Using the word "country" in the title would not expand or limit the scope of the lists. It would not change the scope of the lists at all. If this goes through, we would remain entitled to use an appropriate definition of the word "country" for the circumstances of the articles concerned (in most cases, this will be something like, any entity listed on ISO 3166-1), provided that our definition meets WP:SAL's requirement that inclusion criteria be "unambiguous, objective, and supported by reliable sources". And there is advantage, as the IP notes, in consistent naming. Pfainuk talk 22:00, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

You have very valid points, and I do not disagree completely with the rename, just cautious for the reasons stated.--UnQuébécois (talk) 23:43, 17 February 2012 (UTC)

CMD and UnQuébécois, as Pfainuk has pointed out, it isn't going to help anything with "countries and territories" or "sovereign states and territories". People can still argue that Tibet is a country, England is still a territory even if it isn't a country, or US states are sovereign according to their state constitutions. What we have to do is to define clearly the inclusion criteria in the lede. The titles should be precise and consistent. 61.18.170.237 (talk) 08:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose While I mostly agree with Pfainuk's points, the type of editor who wants to quibble and argue about the inclusion of this or that "country" is also the type to use the title as inclusion criteria. There is quite enough edit warring about definitions at country already. No need to expand the battlefield and give ammo to various nationalist POV warriors. Just, for instance, who is this IP and why did they disrupt a dozen articles with a move request that had no previous discussion? Hong Kong anonymous IPs are getting annoying. SchmuckyTheCat (talk)

Yes I am editing from Hong Kong but my background is irrelevant with this proposal. From what I read the recent edits to country got nothing to do with Hong Kong. 61.18.170.237 (talk) 08:51, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• Oppose: Per aboves. The word country is too vague as some places are countries such as England but not sovereign nations or territories. The current title makes it clear. The C of E. God Save The Queen! (talk) 08:54, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

So, as I say, we can clarify it in the lede as per the MOS. We can choose a definition of the word "country" that includes or excludes England and others as appropriate to the list (provided, of course, that that definition meets the standard laid out in the MOS). Terms like "sovereign states" have the same flaw in principle because some sovereign states (including the US states) are not independent and are thus not necessarily included in the intended meaning.

That said, I understand others' reticence, having been involved in multiple discussions where groups of editors have come to articles like these, demanding that we make whatever changes to inclusion criteria are necessary (regardless of policy, and even if the change is likely to cause a FL to be de-featured) to include their own preferred cases. It is sad that we feel the need to give these articles such awkward names - given that policy is clear that simpler names would be better - because the articles will be disrupted by nationalists if we don't. Pfainuk talk 13:07, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

If the policy is clear, should this be speedied instead? Terms like "states" and "sovereign states" can be as vague as "countries", whereas "territories" can be anything. In the long term I believe the title for these lists should be hardcoded in WP:WPC, WP:MOS and WP:AT. 61.18.170.20 (talk) 13:40, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

Given how much opposition there is, RM is the most appropriate venue. And the concerns that others express are certainly well-founded.

I am unconvinced about detailing this particular case in policy as there is neither need nor benefit. People who ignore the existing policy will also ignore any new policy. And in any case, those editors concerned generally want an entity to be included on the list, not for the list to be renamed. Renaming, when it comes about, is generally a compromise solution. Pfainuk talk 14:01, 18 February 2012 (UTC)

• Move all per nomination. 147.8.102.108 (talk) 12:23, 21 February 2012 (UTC)— 147.8.102.108 (talk) has made few or no other edits outside this topic. and probably a sockwas blocked as sock

• Partial oppose - These articles have long and unwieldy names, but I disagree that "countries" can be a "catch-all" term. Instead I think we should rename the ones that have "sovereign states and dependent territories" to "countries and territories":
  • List of sovereign states and dependent territories by fertility rate → List of countries and territories by fertility rate
  • List of sovereign states and dependent territories by birth rate → List of countries and territories by birth rate
  • List of sovereign states and dependent territories by death rate → List of countries and territories by death rate
  • List of sovereign states and dependent territories by population density → List of countries and territories by population density
  • List of sovereign states and dependent territories by continent → List of countries and territories by continent
  • List of sovereign states by current account balance → List of countries by current account balance
  • List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Europe → List of countries and territories in Europe
  • List of sovereign states and dependent territories in Eurasia → List of countries and territories in Eurasia
  • Also is it just me or did the nominator list List of countries and territories by land borders → List of countries and territories by land borders. :) Green Giant (talk) 01:44, 25 February 2012 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

plastic jar http://www.ourplastics.com — Preceding unsigned comment added by Zlyseo (talk • contribs) 08:24, 19 February 2013 (UTC)

Additional proposed list

Having just lost money in a pub quiz where I think the question-master was wrong, I've prepared a list of countries ordered by latitude (North-South) using data from the rest of Wikipedia. The question was - "there are more countries in the northern hemisphere than the southern hemisphere ; true or false?" I thought true, but we lost the point.

So ... I've taken the existing list of countries with capital cities, added the lat/ long of each capital city (from 200-odd other wikipedia articles!), then done some spreadsheet ju-ju to order things by latitude (or if desired, longitude ; country name, and capital name come for free. I've got the data stored locally now, but never having succeeded in getting a multi-sort table working before, I am looking for someone who knows how to do this.

First few lines of data :

Scratch table for lat-long sortable

City	Country	Latitude	Longitude	Decimal.Lat	Decimal.Long	Equatorial?
Grytviken	South Georgia and the South Sandwich Islands	54°15′S	036°45′W	-54.2500	-36.7500
Wellington	New Zealand	41°17′S	174°27′E	-41.2833	174.4500
Edinburgh of the Seven Seas	Tristan da Cunha	37°07′S	012°17′W	-37.1167	-12.2833
Canberra	Australia	35°18′S	149°08′E	-35.3000	149.1333
[Massive SNIP]
Reykjavík	Iceland	64°08′N	021°56′W	64.1333	-21.9333
Nuuk	Greenland	64°10′N	051°44′W	64.1667	-51.7333

Nope ; fuck that. I'm not learning a 27th programming language just for Wikipedia. Here's the data ; do what you want with it :

Aidan Karley (talk) 12:18, 25 July 2013 (UTC) Well that showed up as messed up as expected ; reminds me why I decided to not waste time figuring wikiblurb in the past. I've converted a few lines into something-like wikiblurb, but I'm not trying that for 250 rows. What a horrible mess - it's worse than our programming excuse-for-a-language at work, and we get paid to plough through that.

Anyone wants to try turning the full spreadsheet (ODS format) into wikiblurb, drop me a message and I'll send you the file. Aidan Karley (talk) 12:37, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Defining "countries"

I recently did some work on List of countries by population which gave it this introduction:

This is a list of countries and dependent territories by population with inclusion within the list being based on the ISO standard ISO 3166-1.

The list includes sovereign states, inhabited dependent territories and, in some cases, constituent countries of sovereign states. The United Kingdom is considered (as a sovereign state) as a single entity in the lists while the constituent countries of the Netherlands are regarded separately.

It previously read:

This is a list of independent countries and inhabited dependent territories—based on the ISO standard ISO 3166-1—by population.

(The first link there connects to list of sovereign states).

I'd appreciate thoughts on changes so far even though this content only relates to one aspect of defining countries.

In the case of countries like China which have regions mentioned in the dependent territories article (in this case Macau and Hong Kong are considered to have Special administrative region status) I think it would be worth stating in an article which states or regions are considered to be part of the main part of the country. Several articles state that they relate to both countries and dependent territories but, if you include information on dependent territories, how do you then define the country? Do you include information about a region mentioned in the dependent territory article so as to include it as being part of the country itself - (in this case you would be effectively counting the information twice) - or do you count the country as being a separate entity from any extra region in question? I'm just wondering what are good ways to go about things in these regards and how best to explain what is going on. Gregkaye (talk) 01:48, 7 July 2014 (UTC)

Notification of RFC

Talk:Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#RFC:_Lists_of_countries_and_territories.2C_List_of_sovereign_states.2C_List_of_active_rebel_groups_and_ISIL has an RFC potentially affecting this page.

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What's the difference between this page and Lists of countries?

Isn't Lists of countries much easier to maintain, and therefore always more up-to-date, via simple inclusion on the member page, rather than editing here? Guarapiranga (talk) 14:58, 20 November 2019 (UTC)

List of countries and territories in alphabetical order?

I searched this in vain for a simple list of countries and territories/dependencies in alphabetical order. It isn’t useful to have territories and dependencies listed under sovereign states when what you are looking for is a complete list in alphabetical order. It seems not to exist. Ptilinopus (talk) 08:00, 25 March 2020 (UTC)

Megadiverse countries

Hello. Please, could You add somewhere to this list also link to Megadiverse countries? Thank You. Cassa342 (talk) 10:47, 11 March 2023 (UTC)

Did I miss it?

This list of countries needs a list of countries. Browsing from a phone, not a single country is shown. 2601:648:8700:1CE0:6006:2490:2EC2:E9D3 (talk) 16:17, 21 July 2023 (UTC)

This is a list of lists, not countries. CMD (talk) 17:13, 22 July 2023 (UTC)

"Largest economies" listed at Redirects for discussion

The redirect Largest economies has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2023 September 11 § Largest economies until a consensus is reached. Presidentman talk · contribs (Talkback) 00:04, 11 September 2023 (UTC)