Talk:Lists of figures in Germanic heroic legend

This list has no stated criteria and seems to be the project of one editor. An article on Germanic heroes might be better. Srnec (talk) 20:21, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

There are undoubtedly some not very heroic figures in it, such as Angantyr. It's based on the category, and I keep mulling over creating a sub-list for "Sea-kings, berserkers, and other characters in heroic literature" and moving those into that section. But I proposed splitting off the heroes at Talk:List of Germanic deities#Heroes? and as you will see there has been no dissent, rather the reverse. I think an article would be rather diffuse, but you're welcome to write one; however, I think this list will still be useful, and far more useful than as a section in the list of deities. So go ahead and improve it by adding an intro, making that split into a subsection, or anything else you feel would help it; I haven't previously done a list and wondered whether it needed an intro. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:39, 10 February 2011 (UTC)

Missing

Dietrich, Walther, and Roland are some super famous Heroes that are missing from this list.2601:806:4301:C100:7533:4AB5:4E03:EFAE (talk) 18:19, 2 April 2017 (UTC)

Overhaul

@Ermenrich: and I have worked on the lists here, and you are welcome to give your feedback!@Yngvadottir:, @Bloodofox:, @Alcaios:, @Srnec:, @Obenritter:, @Austronesier:, @Krakkos:, @Haukurth:, @Alarichall: (I apologize to anyone I have forgotten here.).--Berig (talk) 16:01, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Maybe @Carlstak: could be interested too.--Berig (talk) 19:07, 13 August 2021 (UTC)

This is admirable, high-quality work for which you should be commended. Bravo, Sir. --Obenritter (talk) 16:33, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Thank you! :-).--Berig (talk) 19:29, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

@Berig and Ermenrich: Thank you both, very well done! I have one small concern: I think the last exception, "gods and deities (giants, dwarfs, and other otherworldly beings are included)." should be rephrased to "deities and other otherworldly beings such as giants and dwarfs". Deities = gods and goddesses. My first impulse was to write "such as giants, dwarfs, and valkyries", but you have Sigrun and well as Brunhild, so it seems you are not omitting valkyries because of their crossover role. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:45, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

Giants, dwarves and Valkyries are included. I will rewrite it to make it more clear from the text.--Berig (talk) 20:54, 10 August 2021 (UTC)

• I'm not sure I agree with the page move. The new title ("Lists in Germanic heroic legend") is very unclear about what is listed. Since this is now a list of lists, perhaps we could just list the lists at Germanic heroic legend? We also have an article on the Germanic hero which is totally unintegrated at the moment and is perhaps best merged. Srnec (talk) 00:54, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

• Agree that Germanic hero should be merged.--Ermenrich (talk) 00:59, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Ok, moved it back.--Berig (talk) 12:00, 11 August 2021 (UTC)

Great work on this. A lot of people will find this very useful. :bloodofox: (talk) 02:00, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Great work guys! Krakkos (talk) 12:45, 28 August 2021 (UTC)

Terrible work. Wikipedia never ceases to disappoint me...188.172.109.55 (talk) 10:48, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

Thank you for taking your time to give us your feedback!--Berig (talk) 11:34, 23 September 2021 (UTC)

"Giants"

Anyone here want to flesh out jötunn more? The notoriously troublesome gloss of 'giant' for all semantically connected forms makes this a major pain to approach, but it currently handles the entire complex outside of developments form *trullan (handled at troll). For example, Jötunn includes reflexes of *wrisjon (like modern German Riese). :bloodofox: (talk) 02:55, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

That article does indeed look in unusually horrible shape. I'm afraid I won't have time to work on it myself, unfortunately, but I strongly endorse a rewrite.--Ermenrich (talk) 13:19, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Honestly, I am not sure what can be done about the topic. There are many fuzzy concepts here where several synonyms and half-synonyms just blend into each other. How do we separate troll from jotun, jotun from risi, and risi from giant? It is quite similar to the situation with elfs and fairies, and different house spirits like brownies, cobolds and tomte that blend with wights and gnomes. It is simply a mess to write articles about.--Berig (talk) 13:31, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

And I forgot thurs.--Berig (talk) 14:40, 15 August 2021 (UTC)

Here are some refs for whoever tackles it:

• Lotte Motz, "The Families of Giants", Arkiv för nordisk filologi 102 (1987) 216–36 - she attempted to differentiate the types, arguing that the jǫtnar are owners of nature and trolls are giants with magic powers
• Ármann Jakobsson, "Identifying the Ogre: The Legendary Saga Giants", in: Annette Lassen, Agneta Ney, and Ármann Jakobsson, eds., Fornaldarsagaerne, myter og virkelighed: Studier i de oldislandske fornaldarsögur Norðurlanda, Copenhagen: Museum Tusculanum, 2009, pp. 181–200, and "The Taxonomy of the Non-Existent: Some Medieval Icelandic Concepts of the Paranormal", Fabula 54 (2013) 199–213; in both of these, he argues that all four "giant" terms are confused even on the fornaldarsögur.
• Tom Grant, "A Problem of Giant Proportions: Distinguishing Risar and Jötnar in old Icelandic saga material", Gripla 30 (2019) 77–106 (a good overview in my opinion, distinguishing usage in the fornaldarsögur and when referring to foreign giants from the tradition of the jǫtnar and þursar, and including the lack of a word for "giantess" that doesn't really mean "ogress" or something else pejorative. I am using his summaries for Motz and Ármann Jakobsson.

More specialized/polemical focus:

• • Margaret Clunies Ross, Prolonged Echoes: Old Norse Myths in Medieval Northern Society, 2 vols., Volume 1: The Myths, The Viking Collection: Studies in Northern Civilization 7, Odense: Odense University, 1994, propounds the view that the Æsir oppress the giants (a view shared by many scholars) and are misogynistic in that and other respects
  • Riti Kroesen, "Ambiguity in the relationship between heroes and giants", Arkiv för nordisk filologi 111 (1996) 57–71 and other work: the giants as representatives of chaos
  • John McKinnell, Meeting the Other in Norse Myth and Legend, Woodbridge, Suffolk / Rochester, New York: Brewer, 2005 is an analysis of the myths that classifies Thor's interactions with giants and dwarfs using folktale categories, building to some extent on Clunies Ross

... and Ernst Alfred Philippson's work, from an earlier period, characterizing the jǫtnar as earlier gods. Yngvadottir (talk) 20:30, 15 August 2021 (UTC)