Talk:Lohengrin (opera)

Copyright of 1920s guide

Anote on this talk page abt the copyright status of the 1920s guide referred to would go a long way toward preventing the article being tagged as a copyvio. --Jerzy(t) 18:56, 2005 Jan 7 (UTC)

Lohengrin character article

I'm moving this page to Lohengrin (opera) to start a page on the character of Lohengrin.--Cuchullain 00:30, May 26, 2005 (UTC)

missing plot element

The plot summary actually omits one of the most crucial scenes -- the duet in which Ortrud, Iago-like, tries to encourage Elsa's doubts about her hero. Otherwise, why would Else break her word?

Fixed. SingingZombie (talk) 06:17, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

I'd also like to point out that while some legends connect Parsifal with King Arthur, nothing is made of this is the opera, where Parsifal is a king of a mystical realm and apparently has no king over him. So does this really belong with a King Arthur project?

The plot summary abruptly mentions Ortrud without explaining that she is Telramund's wife, which is crucial to her motivation. CharlesTheBold (talk) 11:48, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

As far as I can see, the very first mention of her in the synopsis is in Act 1 and it states the relationship quite clearly:

Telramund's wife, Ortrud, a pagan woman, does not join the prayer of the monotheists, but privately expresses confidence that Telramund will win.

Voceditenore (talk) 12:06, 14 June 2012 (UTC)

only tarried to--?

The statement that Lohengrin tarried only to prove Elsa innocent makes no sense. She was declared innocent two acts ago, and they were married! The real reason he tarried was that he thought the people deserved an explanation for why he had to leave (violating his marriage vow to Elsa and his feudal oath to the King). 76.122.75.11 (talk) 20:09, 1 March 2009 (UTC)

CharlesTheBold 03:30, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Category:Operas vs. Category:Operas by composer vs. Category:Operas by Richard Wagner

Category:Operas by Richard Wagner is a category within Category:Operas by composer which is in turn a category within Category:Operas. — Robert Greer (talk) 13:33, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Please do not remove Category:Operas from articles on operas, regardless of their sub-categories. As it says on the top of that page:

It has been agreed after discussion in the Wikipedia Opera Project that all opera title articles will be included in this main category to enable searching by users.

- Voceditenore (talk) 13:39, 28 August 2009 (UTC)

Ortrud's vocal range

Ortrud is a mezzo, not a soprano. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.237.243.185 (talk) 02:49, 28 July 2010 (UTC)

Thanks for the fix.

In German

Should the article mention that the opera is written in German? I know that's obvious to Wagner experts, but this is an encyclopedia for the masses. 76.173.99.102 (talk) 20:33, 20 November 2010 (UTC)

Verdi attending the Italian premiere?

An anon user added a most interesting fact (?) to the performance history about Verdi attending the Italian premiere. Unfortunately, no reference was provided. Can anyone with access to a reliable source corroborate this? Francesco Malipiero (talk) 23:50, 1 December 2010 (UTC)

I'm a bit puzzled by the above: first, the anon user says that Verdi attended on the 9th November, which wasn't the Italian premiere (the premiere was on 1 November), and, second, a reference was indeed provided - and surely, the Istituto Nazionale di Studi Verdiani counts as a reliable source? FWIW, Julian Budden (Vol 3 p.186) says that Verdi attended "a performance", clearly not the premiere, during the run.

Incidentally, there are far too many red links in the Performance History section. --GuillaumeTell 16:16, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

My mistake about the date, but the ref was not there when I saw the edit (there was a "ref name=studi" without text and an error message at the bottom of the article). The text for the ref was added later by a bot, and it is now clear that this info was copied from the article on conductor Angelo Mariani.Best. Francesco Malipiero (talk) 18:07, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

sea of red links

I went through the sea of red linked singers in the Performance history section checking for incoming links. I'd recommend keeping the following:

Gabrielle Krauss • Étienne Troy • Anna D'Angeri • Auguste Vianesi • Giuseppe Kaschmann • Caroline Fiérens-Peters • Charles Douaillier • Maurice-Arnold Renaud

They are all linked from Wikipedia:Music encyclopedia topics and/or were role-creators in other operas. I think the rest could be usefully de-linked. Voceditenore (talk) 17:40, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

De-linked the rest. --GuillaumeTell 18:17, 2 December 2010 (UTC)

Recordings comment

I'm transferring the following comment by User:Kenw44wiki here to the talk page. It had been placed in the article itself.

"I believe the Keilberth recording features Elenor Steber as Elsa, not Birgit Nilsson"

Voceditenore (talk) 07:06, 16 August 2012 (UTC)

Merger proposal/Ortrud to this article

Proposing that Ortrud be merged into this article. Normally we don't have articles on fictional characters that don't have a literature of their own (as, for example, Lohengrin obviously does have). The Ortrud article is exclusively concerned with the opera. Kleinzach 02:55, 12 September 2013 (UTC)

Since no one has objected to the merger proposal in more than a year, I have completed the merger. Neelix (talk) 18:20, 19 October 2014 (UTC)

The subsequent move of Lohengrin (opera) to Lohengrin (Wagner) was unnecessary and not supported by Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines#Operas: disambiguation. Wide-ranging moves like these ought to be discussed at Wikipedia talk:WikiProject Opera. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 07:39, 20 October 2014 (UTC)

The controversial move has been discussed here and here and has now been reverted. Prhartcom (talk) 05:25, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Infobox

I have reverted the infobox to the previous template, as there should have been a discussion on this page first. As there have been a number of one-off insertions of infoboxes in Wagnerian operas, I am raising the issue at WP:Opera and WP:Wagner.--Smerus (talk) 10:18, 27 August 2015 (UTC)

Re: 3 Instrumentation, on-stage

In the printed score on page 267 at the end of the second act Wagner specifies 10 (visible) on-stage trumpets as follows: 3 trumpets in C on the right (auf dem Thurme rechts), 3 trumpets in C on the left (auf dem Söller links) and 4 trumpets in C in front of the palace (vor dem Palast).

Additionally, in the orchestral interlude of act III scene 3 on page 321 Wagner needs 12 trumpets approaching from different directions (left-right) in the backstage as follows: 2 trumpets in E-flat (Es), 2 trumpets in F, 2 trumpets in D, 2 trumpets in E and 4 trumpets in C.

In both scenes there are 3 trumpets in C in the pit, so a performance of the full score requires 15 trumpet players playing in turn 21 different instruments as follows: 13 trumpets in C, 2 trumpets in D, 2 trumpets in E flat, 2 trumpets in E and 2 trumpets in F.

I would appreciate if one the editors of this page could check the facts and make the appropriate corrections. I am using a 1982 Dover reprint of the 1877 Neue Ausgabe of Breitkopf & Härtel, Leipzig.

regards Jorma Koskinen — Preceding unsigned comment added by Jormakos (talk • contribs) 15:35, 17 November 2015 (UTC)

Removal from Category German patriotic songs

May someone tell me why the opera has been removed from this category? While it is true that the entire opera is not a patriotic one, at least the beginning of act III qualifies as patriotic music. -- Orthographicus (talk) 06:52, 11 December 2015 (UTC)

Assessment comment

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Comment(s)

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Marginal (low end) Start class (30 points). All sections need development including: A full performance history section A full synopsis (including German/English arias) References etc etc. -- Kleinzach 02:54, 8 September 2007 (UTC) Just scrapes into Start class. Comments as per Kleinzach, plus: A lot more background is required Much more on the music and critical appreciation Better listing of recordings At least one image --GuillaumeTell 21:28, 10 September 2007 (UTC) 33/100 weak Start class. Agree with above comments. Comments in detail follow. Background/history of composition/discussion of plot and/or text, etc. 4/15 Decent coverage of sources, no discussion of composition, Wagner fleeing Dresden etc. And RW won't have heard of Ludwig to encourage him to unite Germany. Performance history, including recent performance history and creators of roles 6/15. need to expand on evidence of immediate popular success, mention that is part of Bayreuth canon and indicate how often it is performed there and elsewhere today etc. Tabulated list of roles 4/5. Need to find full name of original villains. Synopsis 5/10. Needs to be expansion based on the libretto. E.g. Telramund's four knoghts are not mentioned. Also needs to be in modern English. "And lo" particularly annoyed me. Notable arias, etc: 2/5 Need to identify more of the arias and in English in the place they occur in the synopsis. Critical appreciation, discussion of music etc 2/15. A few pieces mentioned but needs full discussion. Illustrations 3/10. Good to have a musical illustration. Perhaps some more of famous extracts and arias would help. Needs some pictures too. Lohengrin is a popular subject for illustrations and was when images now out of copywrite were made. Recordings 4/10 should identify cast (at least the 5 pricipals). Dates should be dates of recording. List sould be fuller or at least criteria for selection identified and historic recordings identified. Inline references, notes, sources, external links 3/15. Need to start inline referencing. Better wbsites will be available.--Peter cohen 12:48, 12 September 2007 (UTC)

Last edited at 23:08, 22 March 2015 (UTC). Substituted at 22:24, 29 April 2016 (UTC)

New Swan

Whatever the translation of Neuschwanstein (I wouldn't translate it at all, we have a link), I don't believe this place is lead material when the lead contains so little about the work itself. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 13:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

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Requested move 13 July 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved (non-admin closure) ~SS49~ {talk} 13:13, 20 July 2019 (UTC)

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Lohengrin (opera) → Lohengrin (Wagner) – WP:TITLE (specifically WP:CRITERIA), and WP:DISAMBIGUATION ... Lohengrin (Sciarrino) is really not in the same category as the Faust (opera) vs Faust (Spohr) RM, but since not following the rules here has been cited as reason for not following the rules for the two Faust operas, no alternative but progress the two Lohengrin operas to RM too. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:52, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

Again no objection to leaving Lohengrin (opera) as a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT to the correct title. Just in case anyone doesn't know it is by Wagner. In ictu oculi (talk) 09:55, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose. When rules lead to strange results we better ignore them. Some readers will be surprised that Lohengrin doesn't lead to the well-known opera, and most will never have heard of Sciarrone's work. This has been discussed in 2015 (see here). The name has been stable for a long time (before and after that short interruption), - and that alone would be a reason not to change, and certainly not for teh rulez' sake alone. --Gerda Arendt (talk) 09:59, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose – The current title is in line with Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines#Operas: disambiguation. Disambiguators are not explanatory notes. -- Michael Bednarek (talk) 10:17, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

(2) If there are two (or more) operas with the same title, subsequent articles on operas of the same name take the name(s) of the composer(s) in parentheses. For example: Otello is the opera by Verdi, and Otello (Rossini) is the one by Rossini. (Normally, the first article to be created is also on the opera that is more well-known.)

This is interesting, but it is an example of WP:LOCALCONSENSUS at odds with WP:PDAB In ictu oculi (talk) 23:31, 14 July 2019 (UTC)

• Oppose Per Michael and the arguments at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 March 16#Lohengrin (opera) from 2015, when someone else previously tried this inappropriate disambiguation and actually moved it to Lohengrin (Wagner). The decision was overwhelmingly to restore the title to Lohengrin (opera). Voceditenore (talk) 14:47, 13 July 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per Wikipedia:WikiProject Opera/Article guidelines#Operas: disambiguation and Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2015 March 16#Lohengrin (opera) and per general ease of searching and recognizability. Softlavender (talk) 23:23, 13 July 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Composition

I've added the history of the opera's composition. I have moved the existing material into a new section called 'Musical Style' which is in keeping with heading in Millington's Compendium. --Flourbomb (talk) 17:31, 14 April 2020 (UTC)

I've added new material which is an introduction to the musical style, removed the existing material which was flagged as unreferenced, and, for that matter, inaccurate. --Flourbomb (talk) 14:00, 19 April 2020 (UTC)

Organization

Now that the connoisseurs and specialists have filled the article with inexpressible levels of detail, could I, speaking as a user of the reference, suggest that it is more user-friendly to move the Synopsis from #7, to #2, right after the Contents box. Most people seeking information here will want to start with what the Opera IS, a story about two people etc., and later get into its origins and after that the details of how it was composed, its structure, etc. Thank you. ~dpablo, seattle, wa usa — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:602:9200:B330:8529:5804:81FB:7D20 (talk) 22:29, 15 August 2020 (UTC)

Cruvelli

What do others think of this fact and reference: There was however an 1881 French performance given as a Benefit, in the Cercle de la Méditerranée Salon at Nice, organized by Sophie Cruvelli, in which she took the role of Elsa. ref: Elizabeth Forbes, 'Sophie Cruvelli' (short biography) Archived 26 July 2011 at the Wayback Machine, Arts.jrank.org Gerda Arendt (talk) 07:15, 16 August 2022 (UTC)