Talk:Derry
(Redirected from Talk:Londonderry)
Latest comment: 7 days ago by 149.50.163.107 in topic Advice sought
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Many of these questions arise frequently on the talk page concerning Derry, Northern Ireland.
Q1: Why is this article called Derry?
A1: There have been disputes on Wikipedia over whether this article should be called Derry or Londonderry. There have also been disputes over whether the county article and others should use Derry or Londonderry. These are part of the wider Derry/Londonderry name dispute. In 2004, in response to these disputes, Wikipedia adopted a compromise that the city should be called Derry and the county should be called County Londonderry.
This compromise exists for three reasons. Firstly, it is intended to prevent Wikipedia from being seen as favouring those who prefer Derry or favouring those who prefer Londonderry. Secondly, Wikipedia prefers to avoid a "Stroke City" title like "Derry/Londonderry". Although permitted for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute article, using this for the city article would be confusing to those unfamiliar with the dispute. The guidelines on naming geographic articles favour giving these articles a single name even when the place is subject to a name dispute. Thirdly, this compromise is preferred to the reversed alternative of calling the city Londonderry and the county County Derry. Q2: Why have there been disputes over this?
A2: The disputes on Wikipedia have been part of a wider dispute over the city's name: see Derry/Londonderry name dispute for more information. In a nutshell:
Favouring the use of Derry in the context of these disputes is associated with Irish nationalism (i.e. favouring a United Ireland) and therefore also with the Catholic population of Northern Ireland. Favouring Londonderry in the same context is associated with Northern Irish unionism (i.e. favouring Northern Ireland's continued membership in the United Kingdom) and therefore also with the Protestant population of Northern Ireland. However, it is a misconception that Protestants prefer to call the city Londonderry. As noted in the article, most Protestant locals call the city Derry in everyday speech. Examples of Protestant organisations using Derry include the Apprentice Boys of Derry and the Church of Ireland's Diocese of Derry and Raphoe. Disputes have more often been over which name to use in formal situations where Londonderry was traditionally used, such as the name of the local council. Q3: By using Derry, is Wikipedia taking sides in the dispute?
A3: There is a risk that Wikipedia will be seen as taking sides, mainly if someone is not aware that the County Londonderry article is being used as a counterbalance. However, for the reasons outlined in Q1, the current compromise was agreed to be better than the alternatives. This issue would certainly not be resolved by renaming the article to Londonderry. Q4: Is Londonderry the city's official name?
A4: Yes, through the city's 1662 Royal Charter. This was reaffirmed in a High Court case in 2007. Q5: Why is the official name not used?
A5: Wikipedia's policy on article titles states that an official name is not necessarily the most appropriate one for an article title. For example, Wikipedia may avoid the official name if an alternative name is more neutral. For reasons discussed in Q1 and Q2, this article is a case where the need for neutrality affects the naming of the article. Wikipedia may also avoid the official name in favour of a more frequently used name. Locals tend to call the city Derry more frequently than Londonderry, which is not on its own a justification for calling the article Derry but it is something that can be taken into consideration when deciding on an article name. Q6: Is Londonderry the city's real/actual name?
A6: If the real/actual name is defined to be the official name, then yes. However, as explained in Q5, that does not mean that it is the most appropriate name to use in the name of the article. Q7: Why is the article using a nickname?
A7: The full reasons are discussed in Q1, but Derry is not merely an informal name. There are some formal contexts where Derry is used in place of Londonderry. These include the name of the local government district (Derry City and Strabane), the name of the local council (Derry City and Strabane District Council), the City of Derry Airport and the Church of Ireland diocese. Q8: Is Derry the name that the Republic of Ireland uses?
A8: Yes, by coincidence. This is not related to the reasons why this article also uses Derry, which are discussed in Q1. Q9: Does this policy apply to other articles?
A9: Yes. The city should be called Derry in other articles. Likewise, the county should be called County Londonderry. Q10: Are there exceptions to this policy?
A10: Mentions of the city and county in quotations should not be changed, regardless of whether they use Derry, Londonderry or something else. Entities that are local or related to the city should likewise be called by their own names. Hence an office is called High Sheriff of Londonderry City but the airport is called City of Derry Airport. This also applies to articles about the county, for example: North West Liberties of Londonderry and Derry GAA. However, in those articles, any mentions of the city or county should follow Wikipedia's policy, rather than the entity's own practice. Therefore, Derry GAA (which may be abbreviated to Derry) is described as being "responsible for Gaelic games in County Londonderry", even though the organisation itself prefers to call it County Derry.
For more advice, see the manual of style regarding Irish topics. Q11: Can the consensus be changed?
A11: It is true that consensus can change. But any proposal must be an improvement on the 2004 compromise, and it must be at least as neutral towards the name dispute. Q12: If no-one is objecting to my proposal, can it go ahead?
A12: Be aware that many discussions on the talk page have tended to result in previous arguments being restated, without anything constructive being achieved, and therefore some editors are reluctant to get involved in a repeat of previous discussions. Even if there are few or no objections to a proposal, objections may still be made if the proposal is moved beyond the talk page. |
 | Warning: active arbitration remedies The contentious topics procedure applies to this article. This article is related to the Troubles, which is a contentious topic. Furthermore, the following rules apply when editing this article:
Editors who repeatedly or seriously fail to adhere to the purpose of Wikipedia, any expected standards of behaviour, or any normal editorial process may be blocked or restricted by an administrator. Editors are advised to familiarise themselves with the contentious topics procedures before editing this page. |
| Note to editors: the agreed compromise for the Derry/Londonderry name dispute is that the city page shall be titled Derry and the county page shall be titled County Londonderry. Do not add a thread suggesting a change of any name in the article from Derry to Londonderry, or vice versa, without reading WP:DERRY and ensuring that you bring fresh arguments that stand a good chance of challenging consensus. Edit requests without detail, particularly those containing personal attacks, will be removed. |
Advice sought
editBefore even attempting to edit on this issue I'd like to seek advice from more experienced editors. I've read carefully through the naming convention material and understand perfectly the balance many sensible people are trying to strike. My issue is this:
It has always been my contention (and I promise I have no axe to grind) that everyone in Derry called it Derry. Just because it was easier to say and regardless of the fact that everyone knew the official name. My considered opinion is that this contretemps over the name started as a result of statements by prominent unionist politicians in the 1970's. My memory suggests that the well known Dr Paisley may well have been the originator.
I have evidence to support my views in the shape of a video from the BBC which clearly shows loyalist graffiti from the 1960's which states "Derry Says No Surrender, Britannia Rule".
What would the wisdom of more experienced users be on the use of this evidence. How would one word the text which could go with it?
I've struggled with this issue for months but don't want to make the mistake of editing the information in for it to cause nothing but a pile of trouble as I can see from this, and other pages, that the issue is a sensitive one. Leitrim Lad (talk) 16:16, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- The video of the graffiti would be a primary source, whereas adding something along the lines of "prior to the 1970s, it was common for the majority of the city's residents to use the name Derry" would require secondary sources (i.e. those that provide a survey of the primary evidence such as the graffiti you mention, placing it in context). Cordless Larry (talk) 21:26, 18 January 2022 (UTC)
- What should I select as copyright for the video or any stills from it? Leitrim Lad (talk) 16:15, 27 January 2022 (UTC)
- I've had to forgo editing for a few weeks because of other things however I've now uploaded an image which I intend to use. I am however struggling with the copyright issues so please bear with me. It does transpire however that the original film footage was taken by British Pathe c 1920. Leitrim Lad (talk) 18:27, 2 May 2022 (UTC)
- Done, with some help from the Copyright Team. Should I now await the death threats? Leitrim Lad (talk) 16:06, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- It's a really interesting image, but the text you've added to the article needs a secondary source (as suggested above). The image doesn't establish that "it was common to most of the city's population to use the shorter name" (it's just one instance) and the idea that it "is well illustrated" needs to be attributed to a source. Who is saying that this is a good illustration? Such an assertion can't be made in Wikipedia's voice. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:16, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. The claim that it was common on both sides prior to the 1970s isn't in any way supported by any of this. I think it's fascinating, don't get me wrong, and have a feeling it may well be true but we can't make that claim without references to back it up. Canterbury Tail talk 16:19, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Agreed, just as the way that Birmingham is often called Brum, it does mean that the official name of Birmingham is Brum. Yet, on the wikipedia entry for Birmingham, the title is Birmingham. Londonderry is shortened to Derry just because it is easier to say and quicker, the name is used by both unionists and republicans. Also, does this not also imply that Wikipedia has a political bias for the troubles/republicans? By using a made up name this could indirectly be seen as support for one side, not a very good look for wikipedias end... Sochonthis (talk) 15:44, 3 October 2022 (UTC)
- I agree. The claim that it was common on both sides prior to the 1970s isn't in any way supported by any of this. I think it's fascinating, don't get me wrong, and have a feeling it may well be true but we can't make that claim without references to back it up. Canterbury Tail talk 16:19, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- It's a really interesting image, but the text you've added to the article needs a secondary source (as suggested above). The image doesn't establish that "it was common to most of the city's population to use the shorter name" (it's just one instance) and the idea that it "is well illustrated" needs to be attributed to a source. Who is saying that this is a good illustration? Such an assertion can't be made in Wikipedia's voice. Cordless Larry (talk) 16:16, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- Done, with some help from the Copyright Team. Should I now await the death threats? Leitrim Lad (talk) 16:06, 3 May 2022 (UTC)
- my thought would be, I and many people from Birmingham call home " Brum " and we call ourselves " Brummies " . But I would expect Wikipedia to refer to Birmingham as Birmingham. 94.173.17.182 (talk) 15:53, 28 May 2023 (UTC)
- Consider that Wikipedia is a stickler for officialdome. For instance George Floyd was official "murdered" since a jury found Derek Chavin guilty of murder, even though all the evidence was against that. Consider as well that anyone who saw how the US presidential election as having been stolen have "falsely claimed" that is was stolen, I see no reason for Wikipedia to stray from officialdom. If the formal name of Derry is Londonderry, then it should be called Londonderyy. Full stop. Facts on the ground be damned. 2A02:2454:985E:8900:8DEA:ED60:87CE:54DB (talk) 21:28, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- I think a criminal trial finding someone guilty of murder is substantial evidence to say the victim was murdered. And there is no credible evidence to say the US presidential election was stolen; to not label these claims as false would be to legitimise a baseless conspiracy theory. Timceharris (talk) 12:52, 31 October 2023 (UTC)
- Consider that Wikipedia is a stickler for officialdome. For instance George Floyd was official "murdered" since a jury found Derek Chavin guilty of murder, even though all the evidence was against that. Consider as well that anyone who saw how the US presidential election as having been stolen have "falsely claimed" that is was stolen, I see no reason for Wikipedia to stray from officialdom. If the formal name of Derry is Londonderry, then it should be called Londonderyy. Full stop. Facts on the ground be damned. 2A02:2454:985E:8900:8DEA:ED60:87CE:54DB (talk) 21:28, 20 September 2023 (UTC)
- Its legal and official name is Londonderry 174.45.133.208 (talk) 03:05, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
- Yes, as is already explained in the article. Cordless Larry (talk) 14:00, 26 October 2024 (UTC)
There is no mention of healthcare and hospitals in the city here, such as Altnagelvin Hospital. Also the fact that the city hosts the only other medical school in Northern Ireland (the other is Belfast) is sure worthy of mention (see https://www.ulster.ac.uk/faculties/life-and-health-sciences/medicine). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 149.50.163.107 (talk) 00:05, 19 November 2024 (UTC)
"Doire Cholmcille"
editThe footnote next to the name "Londonderry" in the lede seems to suggest that "Doire Cholmcille" is the Irish equivalent of "Londonderry". Is this really accurate? – filelakeshoe (t / c) 🐱 20:27, 12 April 2023 (UTC)
- No, "Doire Cholmcille" is not an equivalent of "Londonderry". It is an alternative to "Doire" though rare, in the same way that "Londonderry" and "Derry" are alternatives in English. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2A00:23C6:148A:9B01:899F:8F22:E22A:4EC0 (talk) 11:21, 17 November 2023 (UTC)
James burke.
editbbc tv presenter.Specialising in moon.landings.and space craft and Nasa. Just look at his presentation of spacerocket takeoff..on utube. Had to be done perfect. No retakes here. should be included in famous people. Should be given feedom of the City 2A04:4A43:89AF:FE67:C5B5:E5F2:9520:33C3 (talk) 20:05, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
- I have included him. Canterbury Tail talk 20:36, 16 October 2023 (UTC)
Semi-protected edit request on 23 February 2024
edit | This edit request has been answered. Set the |answered= or |ans= parameter to no to reactivate your request. |
Change Londonderry to Derry 89.125.5.66 (talk) 00:56, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
- Not done. See WP:DERRY. Canterbury Tail talk 00:58, 23 February 2024 (UTC)
"(London)derry" listed at Redirects for discussion
edit
The redirect (London)derry has been listed at redirects for discussion to determine whether its use and function meets the redirect guidelines. Readers of this page are welcome to comment on this redirect at Wikipedia:Redirects for discussion/Log/2024 April 9 § (London)derry until a consensus is reached. Okmrman (talk) 19:03, 9 April 2024 (UTC)