Talk:Louis Antoine, Duke of Enghien

Date of Birth reference (This from Michael David (talk · contribs))

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Untitled

This date was given correctly on the year page for 1772 even before the article was created with the incorrect date! Noisy | Talk 18:13, 14 March 2006 (UTC)

There seems to be a contradiction between the Joseph Fouche page and this page. According to the Fouche page, it was Fouche who said "It was worse than a crime; it was a mistake," while according to this page it was Talleyrand. I don't know which is correct but someone should probably figure it out.

Rhinocero 07:34, 21 February 2007 (UTC)

I've always heard it attributed to Talleyrand. Is there a source for attributing it to Fouche? - Jmabel | Talk 01:28, 13 March 2007 (UTC)

Antoine Boulay de la Meurthe is the author of C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute. You can refer to The Oxford Dictionary of Quotations (search "crime" here [[1]]). AldoSyrt 19:56, 12 July 2007 (UTC)

Right. The only problem is that Bartlett's credits Fouche with the quotation and there's no reason to prefer one source to the other. I've altered the text to reflect the fact that the sources conflict. On the talk page for the Talleyrand article, an anonymous contributor says that he read it was Talleyrand who actually said it. The French Wikipedia article fr:Affaire du Duc d'Enghien attributes the quote to Boulay but, frustratingly, does not cite its source. My own view is that it is probably Boulay, for the simple reason that quotations from less famous personages are frequently attributed to more famous ones, if the quote is in character. For example, Winston Churchill is often quoted as saying the heaviest cross he had to bear in WWII was the cross of Lorraine when it was actually of of his aides that said it. This is probably the reason for the frequent attribution of the quote we are discussing to Talleyrand, as in keeping with his reputation for cynicism. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 01:44, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

FWIW, Duff Cooper does not mention this in his biography of Talleyrand. ObiterDicta ( pleadings • errata • appeals ) 03:48, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

I agree your prudence. And you are right: On ne prête qu'aux riches. I was more affirmative because numerous (French) sources warn the reader that the quote is mistakenly attributed to Fouché or Talleyrand. An interesting source is 'Les citations françaises', Othon Guerlac, Librairie Armand Colin, 1931. Guerlac makes the comment (Refer to the Gilles G Jobin's Web site [[2]]):

"Mot dit par Boulay (de la Meurthe) en apprenant l'exécution du duc d'Enghien, 1804. On a attribué le mot à Fouché. Sainte-Beuve (Nouveaux Lundis, t.XII, p.52) dit : 'On m'assure que le mot a été dit en réalité par Boulay (de la Meurthe). Dudon, qui était alors auditeur du Conseil D'État, certifiait l'avoir entendu de sa bouche.' Le mot a aussi été attribué à Talleyrant. Toutefois, à en croire Sainte-Beuve, il n'aurait fait qu'utiliser le mot de Boulay de la Meurthe, après le même événement". (p. 273)

Gustave Flaubert wrote in 'Le dictionnaire des idées reçues'

"C'est pire qu'un crime, c'est une faute." (Talleyrand.) "Il n'y a plus une seule faute à commettre." (Thiers.) Ces deux phrases doivent être articulées avec profondeur.

Since Flaubert is often quoted, this may have set things even more confused. About the cynicism of Talleyrand, he would have said about this execution: "Bah ! ce sont les affaires !" -- AldoSyrt 09:01, 13 July 2007 (UTC)

Page move

The recent move of this page so that it no longer mentions the subject's title was improper: First, it violates our naming conventions on royalty, specifically rule #3 under "Royals with a substantive title", which stipulates "If a prince(ss) holds a substantive title that is not princely (a peerage, for instance), use 'Prince(ss) {first name}, {title}'. Examples: Prince Andrew, Duke of York and Prince Edward, Earl of Wessex." Second, if that choice is unacceptable (since the subject of this article held the rank of prince du sang without using (in France) the title of "prince", then we are required to use the person's most common name in English: The subject of this article is overwhelmingly known in English as "Duke of Enghien" or "Duc d'Enghien", rather than as "N...Bourbon-Condé". Third, because it violated a current rule of consensus, this was a controversial move and should have been brought to this page for discussion & vote before any action was taken. I call for this action to be undone. FactStraight (talk) 03:39, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

"Trumped up charges"

I think this article breaches Wikipedia's stance of neutrality. There are conflicting viewpoints of the execution: some say it was legit, others say it was trumped up. Regardless, I think the article should include the viewpoints of both sides instead of being one-sided. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.43.19.17 (talk) 00:26, 20 May 2010 (UTC)

ip editor edit warring

hi i see your comments. i believe that they think it's "vandalism" when you changed without discussing on the talk page. the new image is interesting, but younger and not as good quality of a representation. the change from death to murder, while i might agree, is moving to loaded language. let the reader decide based on a neutral description of the facts. the change to the pronunciation messed up the coding in my browser. if you have new references or language, please discuss on the talk page first to build a consensus. this works better for the better quality articles, where there are multiple editors. Slowking4⇔ †@1₭ 14:08, 19 July 2012 (UTC)

'true facts"

Pray tell, fellow, what are these "true facts" & how do they compare to "false facts"? "the facts" or "the truth" are apt, but 'true facts" indicate ineptness on the part of those who use the phrase. AptitudeDesign (talk) 08:11, 19 February 2014 (UTC)

Accurate article?

This article suggests that the Duc D'Enghien was framed, but the napoleon-series.org article on the affair reports that Enghien acknowledged being in the service of the British: http://www.napoleon-series.org/research/miscellaneous/c_enghien.html

Which is it? 108.254.160.23 (talk) 03:23, 3 May 2015 (UTC)