Talk:Loui Sand

Requested move 15 January 2019

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Despite a couple of dissensions, and extensive discussion, there is consensus that the subject's name has changed and reliable sources are now using the new form.  — Amakuru (talk) 14:28, 15 February 2019 (UTC)

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Louise Sand → Loui Sand – See:Wikipedia:Gender identity#Common_name. Loui Sand has stated a preference for this name, and recent sources use this name. Loui Sand avslutar handbollskarriären(Aftonbladet), Loui Sand avslutar karriären: "Född i fel kropp"(Göteborg Posten) Kaas (talk) 18:24, 14 January 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. feminist (talk) 00:55, 29 January 2019 (UTC) --Relisting. bd2412 T 23:52, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

User:Cristina neagu Please respect Wikipedia:Gender identity#Common name. Loui Sand has stated a preference for the name "Loui", and all recent Swedish sources use this name. Loui has stated "I have always known myself as Loui, not as Louise", and Aftonbladet states that Loui is "born Louise, but uses Loui as her first name." Link. I also want to remind you that sources such as that one are available in the edit summary.Kaas (talk) 23:05, 14 January 2019 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Jack N. Stock (talk) 00:38, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Hi! There is no evidence she changed her name. Can you provide that? Christina (talk) 08:45, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

The evidence is in the sources that have been provided. Kaas (talk) 15:35, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

That she changed her name officially? Until then Loui is just a nickname. Some countries have serious laws in name changing. Christina (talk) 19:14, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

Whether it's her legal name is irrelevant - please see Wikipedia:Gender identity#Legal name and Wikipedia:Gender identity#Common name. Kaas (talk) 22:00, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

But here we talk about a handball player with this registration. Moreover we don't even know what she will do next. Loui is just a nickname, it's enough. Not to change her handball history in my opinion... Christina (talk) 22:25, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

The fact that she is a (former) handball player has no bearing on how to handle her name. It is incorrect to say that Loui is just a nickname. It is a name she has stated a preference for, and it is the name she uses in all her communication (see, for example, her social media). Furthermore, it is overwhelmingly the name that is currently used in the Swedish press. According to Wikipedia policy, which I have linked in a previous answer "a person may change names simply by beginning to use a new name, without any formal legal process." This is the case here. Kaas (talk) 23:13, 15 January 2019 (UTC)

She's on Wikipedia because of handball. Otherwise she wouldn't be here. She is not a man. It sounds like you want to butcher this page. Christina (talk) 16:43, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

My thinking in creating a redirect rather than moving the article was that the claim to notability was Sand's participation in women's professional and international handball (WP:SPORTCRIT and WP:NOLYMPICS), with search results showing more results for "Louise Sand" in reference to that career. Recent sources more commonly use "Loui Sand", but I identify that name more with Sand's retirement and the next chapter in Sand's life. We are yet to see whether Loui Sand becomes notable with this identity. I am considerate of the subject's clearly stated preference for "Loui", but the policy is WP:NAMECHANGES, and it may be too early to tell if reliable sources written after the recent name change announcement will use that name – maybe Sand will become a very private person who is infrequently mentioned, with too few reliable sources available to provide evidence that the sources routinely use the new name. MOS:MULTIPLENAMES is not definitive either, as it states that "birth names should be included in the lead sentence only when the person was notable under that name", but what if the person was notable under the birth name but not notable under the latter name? Overall, I'm on the fence with the proposed move but interested to know what others think. Jack N. Stock (talk) 02:03, 16 January 2019 (UTC)

I understand the notability concern, but I think the circumstances of Sand's retirement call for a heightened sensitivity towards Sand's self-identification. Sand has come out as transgender, although the specific details of Sand's gender identity are private as of now. To use a transgender person's birth name, when they have a stated preference for a different name is called deadnaming, and it is considered a form of Transphobia. I am a trans person myself, so I know how hurtful deadnaming is. Kaas (talk) 16:09, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

She's on Wikipedia because of handball. Otherwise she wouldn't be here. Sand played on female handball clubs. Christina (talk) 16:45, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

I have searched around for biographical wikipedia pages that meet the following criteria:

1. Subject is notable pre-transition
2. Subject is not notable post-transition.

This is quite hard because such a person transitioning is often notable in an of itself, and these people often become widely publicised trans activists. However, I found two similar cases:

Philippa York who had a very successful mens' cycling career. She announced her transition and 2017 and has barely done anything of note since.

Josie Totah has acted in several Disney-produced television series'. She has not been featured in anything since she came out as trans in late 2018.

Both these examples make use of the persons' preferred name, even though their post-transition actions would not have them meet notability requirements on their own. Kaas (talk) 17:33, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Follow-up to: "She is not a man. It sounds like you want to butcher this page."

Please assume good faith and respect Sand's gender identity. Sand's gender identity has not been made public, so you cannot make any claims about what it is or is not. Kaas (talk) 17:41, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Anyway, I'm signing out of this discussion for a bit. I've made all my points, and I don't think anything productive will come out of me continuing to argue. Kaas (talk) 18:23, 17 January 2019 (UTC)

Arguing is a big word. I am just saying, if she would have used her nickname before in handball it would have been better. But what did she do, she stopped her career and only then talked about some "Loui" thing. I would say it's enough to include her nickname in the article. In my opinion. I am not even voting. Christina (talk) 22:06, 28 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support. MOS:GENDERID is clear: "Give precedence to self-designation as reported in the most up-to-date reliable sources, even when it doesn't match what's most common in reliable sources." © Tbhotch^™ (en-2.5). 06:06, 24 January 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose per WP:COMMONNAME and applying WP:IAR on MOS:GENDERID per longstanding precedent set at Cat Stevens. I don't see why we should go by usage in reliable sources and not subject's preference when the name is changed due to religious reasons, but should go by subject's preference despite RS usage when the name is changed due to gender preference reasons. Our job is to reflect usage in the real world, not right great wrongs. --В²C ☎ 21:43, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
  • WP:COMMONNAME refers to "significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources". Did you find a significant majority of independent, reliable English-language sources preferring "Louise Sand"? I couldn't find such sources for either "Louise Sand" or "Loui Sand." Jack N. Stock (talk) 23:04, 28 January 2019 (UTC)
    • 100% of the English references listed in the article use "Louise". --В²C ☎ 18:33, 29 January 2019 (UTC)
      • Your sample size is too small. It only takes a few contrary references (1, 2, 3) to sway the majority. Jack N. Stock (talk) 07:29, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
• Support: As previously argued, as per MOS:GENDERID is pretty clear on this. Loui Sand wishes to be known as "Loui" Sand. A change of gender/name doesn't diminish her accomplishments as a player. As such, the argument Christina neagu put forward that her relevance is built up around the name "Louise Sand" is ridiculous. Her article on here is relevant because of her accomplishments on the handball court, not because of her name. And she herself has been very clear on how she wishes to be known: "I've always felt like Loui Sand and not like Louise Sand." (Swedish: Jag har alltid känt mig som Loui Sand och inte som Louise Sand) Additionally, on the subject of names, to the best of my ability I haven't been able to find a single piece of "evidence" that confirms that Nycke Groot has legally changed her name to "Nycke" either. But her article's name isn't "Cornelia Groot" even though, say, her EHF page lists her as such – because why would it be? She herself wishes to use Nycke. Can't see why it should be any different for Loui Sand. Cotillards (talk) 18:12, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
  • Oppose: Just that Groot was still in activity, she was still active as a handball player. Sand was not known in the handball world for "Loui". Why am I ridiculous? Please refrain, I just wanted a potential name change to be discussed. Moreover Groot is also called Nycke by the EHF so your argument is quite not good. Two time. Look, she doesn't even need to change her name at all, but in handball she wasn't known as Loui at all. Then, she retired. And only at retirement is confessing things. I didn't want to vote anything, but I am voting now. If Cristiano Ronaldo retires and comes now telling us he's Christina Ronaldo, will we rename his page? This is the question. I had a lot of good will and I added to Sand her nickname, and I redirected a page called Loui Sand. But that's only my opinion, we could also add something about her Personal Life. Christina (talk) 15:44, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
    • I simply can't make out what you're writing about Groot? She "was still in activity, she was still active"? What do you mean? If you read the multiple examples listed here, you would know that she's indeed been referred to as Loui during her active career. And even if she wasn't, that's what she's called now so obviously, that's what her article should be called. What are your reasons for opposing Sand's own wish? As for your example, of course Ronaldo's page name should be changed. Just like Caitlyn Jenner's article isn't called "Bruce Jenner" anymore. This is exactly like if a person takes his or her partner's name. Like how Meghan, Duchess of Sussex's article isn't called "Meghan Markle" anymore. People change their names. Their accomplishments prior to the gender/name change aren't diminished by that. And again, MOS:GENDERID is very clear on this issue. Cotillards (talk) 18:09, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
      • Caitlyn Jenner is American TV personality. Louise Sand stopped handball career for which she was notable on Wikipedia. Look, that's only my opinion! 1 vote, not more. Plus I thought this matter should be discussed, nothing more. PS. I didn't say her accomplishments are diminished. Christina (talk) 20:23, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
        • You indirectly do by arguing that her birth name is what makes her relevant to the sport. You write: "(...) in handball she wasn't known as Loui at all. Then, she retired. And only at retirement is confessing things." Did you also oppose Andrea Penezić's name change to Kobetić? Because in handball, she hasn't been known as Kobetić at all. Or is it only transgender people's name changes you oppose? Additionally Loui Sand runs a very popular handball podcast with Jamina Roberts. She may have stopped playing handball but she still operates within the field of handball. Cotillards (talk) 12:44, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
          • For the podcast she wouldn't be notable on Wikipedia. Penezic changed name because she got married. And she's active. I already told you, if Cristiano Ronaldo would retire and say his name is Cristina Ronaldo, then I would also oppose. Because he wouldn't be in activity anymore and you must be in a field of "notability" after. Christina (talk) 12:52, 30 January 2019 (UTC)
            • Just because you don't listen to said podcast doesn't mean it's not notable, you know. You're making up your own rules here. Loui Sand's notability will never be tied to their name but to their accomplishments. Wikipedia's policy regarding name change doesn't even mention notability. "Louise Sand" is not a stage name like, say, Snoop Dogg or Cat Stevens. From now on, they'll be known as Loui Sand – unless the subject referring to them is determined to misgender them by using their birth name. Cotillards (talk) 13:09, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
              • Hardly such a podcast would pass on Wiki. Just because nobody hear about it and it's in a small country. I don't care about your emotions for LGBTs when children are dying, people are starving in Africa and not only. I just want to remind you how you are treating users (people) on Wikipedia, because you always want to have the last word. You keep reporting experienced users, so you are careless. I accepted your opinion as being last in our war of reverts (although you were not right after I edited the sentence, if you didn't enjoy a comparison without rankings support), and I do really think you were right about the edits of Holstebro. But the way he got kicked from Wikipedia because of a minor conflict and some war of reverts, is really sad. Basically I have time for Wikipedia edits, but I don't have time for shitty conflicts. Like here, you continued with a discussion of loads of comments.. When it's only a vote from me and it will not mean I stopped any page move! I just requested discussion, majority decides (even if I would not think the final outcome is the best). Christina (talk) 13:46, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
                • "I don't care about your emotions for LGBTs when children are dying, people are starving in Africa and not only". That said everything I, a gay woman, needed to know about you and your motivations for opposing this change. Cotillards (talk) 14:42, 31 January 2019 (UTC)
                  • I am also a woman. I just said for our cause you are not that kind (regarding Holstebro user and not only). I didn't know you are gay. That's not me to decide. I mean to choose for you. Christina (talk) 16:09, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

I don't know what sort of feud is going on between the two of you, but it is not appropriate to bring it up on this talk page. With that said, I want to address a few things that have been brought up. Firstly:"If Cristiano Ronaldo retires and comes now telling us he's Christina Ronaldo, will we rename his page?" This would be a similar case to that of Philippa York who competed in men's professional cycling under the name "Robert Millar". She announced her transition and name change to the public in 2017, more than 20 years after her retirement, and the article title on her page reflects that change. In a hypothetical "Christina Ronaldo" scenario, I think the name of his article should be changed too. Secondly: The comment about starving children in Africa is neither appropriate nor relevant. Kaas (talk) 20:49, 31 January 2019 (UTC)

• Support - with the latest news (added to the article), in my estimation the balance has shifted to moving the article. Jack N. Stock (talk) 18:09, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Because a surgery was proceeded, indeed. From here it's not my business anymore. Christina (talk) 21:26, 4 February 2019 (UTC)
• Regretful oppose: unfortunately, statistical evidence is sparse on Ngrams so a Google Search comparison seems like the only recourse left for determining the common name. Louise Sand generates almost double the results Loui Sand does. I'm all for respecting people's gender identities, and I don't want to associate my oppose with the ongoing argument above, but at the end of the day, WP:GENDERID is an essay and WP:COMMONNAME is a policy. I think a centralised discussion either at WT:AT or WT:BLP is the best way to go to forge a lasting consensus on this, because I would be open to considering the benefits of a WP:OFFICIALNAME-style caveat in WP:AT for biographies of living people. However, as policy stands, I'm afraid I have to oppose this proposal. I am open to changing my !vote if Thekaas can show that the reliable sources use the proposed name as I am unable to analyse many of the sources as they are in a language I do not speak. Even if this is the case, I would like to see a centralised discussion to clear the issue up for cases where reliable sources use a person's previous name. Many thanks, SITH (talk) 12:20, 5 February 2019 (UTC)
  • Naturally there will be a majority of articles in which Sand is referred to as "Louise" as they only came out publicly last month and only then made it clear that they want to be referred to as "Loui" from now on. SVT, Swedens national broadcaster, has exclusively referred to Sand as "Loui" since they made their decision public on 7 January. [1][2][3][4] One of the largest nationwide newspapers in the country, Aftonbladet, exclusively refers to Sand as "Loui" to a point where they've changed their keyword from "Louise" to "Loui". Exemplified in this article from 30 January on Sand's mastectomy – if anyone needed any more proof that this isn't just a temporary thing. Also Expressen, the second nationwide newspaper in Sweden, has only used "Loui" since the announcement. [5][6][7] But I guess it's a matter of how you define "reliable sources"? If by "reliable sources", you mean English-language sources, that's always gonna be difficult to find in any handball-related matter – it isn't a big sport in the English-speaking part of the world and aside from this post, neither the EHF or the IHF have commented on Sand's gender dysphoria. [8][9] Lastly, as I mentioned above, Sand has personally been clear on how she wishes to be known: "I've always felt like Loui Sand and not like Louise Sand." (Swedish: Jag har alltid känt mig som Loui Sand och inte som Louise Sand) Does it get more reliable than that? Cotillards (talk) 17:44, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

• StraussInTheHouse, I'm going to go ahead and support this after reading your comments, and please consider revisiting. The references above are to MOS:GENDERID, which is a guideline, not to the essay about it. Yes, WP:COMMONNAME is policy, but so is WP:NAMECHANGES. And it does not appear that there is a common name in English established for this person anyway. When I clicked the links to Google above, I got 44K hits for one and 38K hits for the other, not nearly the "almost double" mentioned above. (I am somewhat sympathetic to the "became famous under" argument, but clearly this subject is still receiving attention, so this is not a change that would violate WP:ASTONISH; nor is a shortened form of the original full name very confusing.) Dekimasuよ! 17:48, 5 February 2019 (UTC)

• Support changed from Regretful oppose: I'm impressed with the sources Cotillards brought up in their reply. With regards to the Google numbering (ping Dekimasu), I usually use www.google.com/ncr (no country redirect) to search for sources because I'm in the UK. I've recently got a new computer so my browser has reset to using www.google.co.uk. The reason this matters is because the .com version yields sources from all Google variants which use the Roman/Latin alphabet, and the UK has to comply with several EU regulations such as the right to be forgotten and the GDPR which have led several foreign websites from withdrawing from the regional search engine due to legal fears (e.g. Chicago Tribune redirects to https://www.tribpub.com/gdpr/chicagotribune.com/). It took me a long time and a lot of head-scratching to find out why we came to different numbers, but the figures Dekimasu mentioned are more reliable per my above explanation. With regards to WP:GENDERID, MOS:GENDERID and WP:COMMONNAME, we really need to sort its status out, probably with an RFC. As the figures are close, I'm giving this the benefit of the doubt, but WP:COMMONNAME is a policy and MOS:GENDERID is a guideline. The RFC proposal will have to be more nuanced than just "we should use a living person's preferred name, even if it clashes with WP:COMMONNAME" because, for example, Anders Behring Breivik has changed his name to Fjotlof Hansen, but nearly everybody knows him as Breivik. SITH (talk) 11:29, 6 February 2019 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.