Talk:Magnús Óláfsson

Did my best

I tried to reorganize the chaotic text found here, and put it into logical order. This helps some, but I hope someone else can smooth out the article, and make it more official looking as a biography article. --Ph0kin 19:30, 13 September 2007 (UTC)

I think I have a couple of Manx history books lying around somewhere. I'll find it and do some work when I have the time. Manxruler 02:16, 14 September 2007 (UTC)

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Pre GA review comments

As a project member of some of the above I can't offer a formal review, but here are a few comments:

Lead

First instances of Kingdom of the Isles "King of the Isles"; Magnús and his brothers, and Harald Olafsson "In 1237, Óláfr died and was succeeded by his elder son, Haraldr," aren’t linked.

Fixed.

We read that " At one point during the campaign, Magnús was one of Hákon's vassals who were tasked with raiding deep into the Lennox district." But in Norwegian retaliation there doesn't seem to be anything about Magnus' role.

OK, I've mentioned the Lennox in the text.

Background

Do we know which parts of the Hebrides?

I've added more detail. Is it too much?

Looks good to me. Ben MacDui 20:13, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

Not clear why Ívarr is italicised.

Removed italics from this and another instance.

Invasion

Accomplice of Ívarr - but not 100% clear who Ívarr is.

I changed it to "accomplice of (the knight) Ívarr".

"The following year, Henry" might be clearer to have "Henry III" or "King Henry".

OK, I went with "Henry III".

"Although Magnús' eldest brother, Haraldr Óláfsson, appears to have ruled over the entirety of the dynasty's sea-realm, as did Magnús from 1252 onwards," Per the above I assume this refers to Mann and the North Isles, and doesn't include the South Isles (which Godred Crovan and his immediate descendants did rule).

Yep. I've changed it to "appears to have ruled over the entirety of the dynasty's 13th century sea-realm".

Norwegian retaliation

Not clear why Icelandic Annals is italicised - is it a specific text?

Removed italics.

"most of Hákon's Norse-Gaelic supporters were reluctant to support his cause" - needs "in future" or similar? They had been content to do so prior to this.

I changed "were reluctant to support his cause" to "had been reluctant to support his cause", referring to the expedition. I also switched "most" to "many".

Honours

"to scholars" hints that there might be others somewhere.

Fixed.

Death

"After becoming a widow, Máire is known to have", repeats "is known to have" from prev. sentence.

Fixed.

Notes

"The Annals of Furness, although an English source, have links to Mann."

Are Annals singular or plural?

I'm not really sure. Since "Annals of Furness" is such an uncommon term on GoogleBooks, I searched for "Annals of Ulster state" and "Annals of Ulster states", in books published in 21st century, and "... state" is far more common. I reads more natural to me when treated as plural.

What do you mean by links?

Sellar says the source has "close links" to Mann, but I guess Sellar must actually refer to Furness Abbey' and its Manx connections (for example, Rushen Abbey was a daughter-house of Furness Abbey; when Olaf the Red founded the Diocese of the Isles he gave the monks of Furness the right to elect the Bishop of the Isles, so in consequence a number these bishops had previously been Abbots of Furness; Ragnvald was buried at Furness Abbey; and a number of the Crovan kings granted lands and rights to the monks of Furness). I'm just going to remove the note altogether unless I can find more info on the Annals of Furness.

Why the red link here but not in the text?

Taken care of.

Sources

Re Cowan, Edward J.; McDonald, Russell Andrew, Alba: Celtic Scotland in the middle ages. The on-line ads sometimes have Medieval Era cf Middle Ages but it always seem capitalised. Ben MacDui 13:45, 11 March 2012 (UTC)

Fixed. Thanks very much MacDui for going over this.--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 09:10, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

You are most welcome. Ben MacDui 20:13, 13 March 2012 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Magnus Olafsson/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Ealdgyth (talk · contribs) 21:45, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

Whee! Norse-Gael royalty! I'll be reviewing this shortly. Ealdgyth - Talk 21:45, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

GA review (see here for what the criteria are, and here for what they are not)

1. It is reasonably well written.

   a (prose): b (MoS for lead, layout, word choice, fiction, and lists):

   A few spots where the prose could use some smoothing

2. It is factually accurate and verifiable.

   a (references): b (citations to reliable sources): c (OR):

3. It is broad in its coverage.

   a (major aspects): b (focused):

4. It follows the neutral point of view policy.

   Fair representation without bias:

5. It is stable.

   No edit wars, etc.:

6. It is illustrated by images, where possible and appropriate.

   a (images are tagged and non-free images have fair use rationales): b (appropriate use with suitable captions):

7. Overall:

   Pass/Fail:

Lead:

• Y"Some leading members of the Crovan dynasty, such as Óláfr,..." does this mean he was a member of the Crovan dynasty? Probably best to make this explicit.
• Y "Hákon's response to Scottish aggression in the Hebrides was to organise a massive fleet to re-assert Norwegian authority." What Scottish aggression though? All we have is the two Alexanders (And as a total side note, where the HELL did the Scots come up with Alexander as a name for their kings, anyway???) trying to buy the islands... that's not really aggression, even for Scots!

• I added some detail into the lead and also the Scottish aggression section. I want the reader to understand that the two Alexanders were actively trying to acquire the region through negotiation and intimidation, and that the reason why the first Alexander was unsuccessful is because he died in the midst of his campaign. About the name, the first Alexander was one of five sons of Malcolm III and Margaret, daughter of Edward the Exile. Margaret endeavoured to reform the church in Scotland, and A. A. M. Duncan says in his ODNB article that this Alexander was likely named after Pope Alexander II. I'm actually reading one of Duncan's books ATM, and in it he says that Margaret's influence over her husband can easily be seen by the names of their sons: Edward (after her father), Edgar (after her brother), Edmund (after her grandfather), Ethelred (after her great-grandfather) and then Alexander, and David. So none of the names were Gaelic or traditionally borne by the kings beforehand, and four were from her own family. I love how it's sometimes possible to see how historical figures got their names. What I'd like to know is how three of the 9th- and 10th- century kings of the Picts/Scots had a name like Constantine!

• Y "At one point during the campaign, Magnús was one of Hákon's vassals who were tasked with raiding deep into the Lennox district." Maybe "At one point during the campaign, Hákon sent Magnús and some other vassals raiding deep into the Lennox district." which makes it active and more engaging.

Background:

• Y "Although Óláfr is known to have had two wives, and no contemporaneous source names the mother of his children, she may have been Óláfr's second wife—Christina, daughter of Fearchar, Earl of Ross, (d. circa 1251)" I got lost a bit in this - I get what you're saying, but I think something like "Although Óláfr is known to have had two wives, and no contemporaneous source names the mother of his children, Magnus' mother may have been Óláfr's second wife—Christina, daughter of Fearchar, Earl of Ross, (d. circa 1251)."
• Y"In 1250, Hákon summoned Haraldr to Norway for his seizure of the kingship..." hm.. something is missing here - do you mean "In 1250, Hákon summoned Haraldr to Norway to answer for his seizure of the kingship..."?
• Y Can we use some other word or phrase than "island-kingdom"? There is a lot of usage of it in this section.

Eogan:

• Y "...known to have written letters to Llywelyn ap Gruffydd (d. 1282),..." probably need to explain who Llywelyn is here...

Norwegian:

• Y "...Scottish-mainland, Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar states that Hákon levied..." what's "Hákonar saga Hákonarsonar"?
• Y "...He sent a detachment of ships deep into the Lennox, through..." THE Lennox?

• That's how the area is often called - "the Lennox". I've changed it to just "Lennox", for simplicity.

Acta:

• Y "Of these, only three date to the reign of Magnús—one of which, a grant to Conishead Priory in 1256, is the only original royal charter of the dynasty in existence.[75] The Chronicle of Mann, the only indigenous narrative source for the dynasty's sea-realm, was compiled on Mann during Magnús' reign." The connection between these two sentences is very very tenuous - can we get a bit better bridge between them?

• I added a bit about evidence of seals used by the kings. Does it read OK?

• Y "Magnús is recorded within the Chronicle of Mann as having been knighted by Henry..." there are like a million Henry's in medieval history - which Henry is meant here?

Death:

• Y "After becoming a widow, Máire had three successive husbands: Máel Ísu, Earl of Strathearn (d. 1271), Hugh, Lord of Abernethy (d. 1291/2), and William Fitzwarin (d. 1299)." is this really relevant to Magnus though? Good candidate for the notes, I'd think.

Excellent work - I've done a light bit of copyediting. When the above are taken care of, I have no problem with passing it. (If you head to FAC, you'll need a source for the map showing the location of the Battle of Largs, but it's fine for GA).

I've put the article on hold for seven days to allow folks to address the issues I've brought up. Feel free to contact me on my talk page, or here with any concerns, and let me know one of those places when the issues have been addressed. If I may suggest that you strike out, check mark, or otherwise mark the items I've detailed, that will make it possible for me to see what's been addressed, and you can keep track of what's been done and what still needs to be worked on. Ealdgyth - Talk 23:17, 1 April 2012 (UTC)

All done I think!--Brianann MacAmhlaidh (talk) 08:46, 6 April 2012 (UTC)

Looks good to me. Passing GA. I'll get to the map question on my talk page soon... I promise! Ealdgyth - Talk 19:25, 7 April 2012 (UTC)

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