Talk:Major professional sports leagues in the United States and Canada

League with the third highest attendance

Is it MLS or the CFL? The article says both at different points. --Khajidha (talk) 12:14, 23 March 2021 (UTC)

Maintenance request/cry for help

This article is severely lacking in cited sources, its attendance figures are outdated enough that updating them would challenge some of the points the article tries to make (especially about the CFL), and the article's thesis—that there's a significant, factual, well-known and well-defined definition of "major league" based on the specific traits it describes—appears to be WP:SYNTH of existing but uncited sources at best, and potentially whole-cloth WP:OR or opinions stated as fact.

The article- and section-level flags I've added, and many of the inline statements I've flagged, are new but there are inline, unaddressed {{citation needed}} flags dating back to 2014. The only league that's reliably sourced in the article is CFL, and most of that appears to be trying to justify its inclusion as a "major league" despite all but one of those sources being unconcerned with the definition.

At a higher level, much of how the article frames the leagues in question is arbitrary. Its scope excludes leagues in Mexico for no given reason, but mentions the leagues' work in Mexico in a contextual vacuum. It adequately defines the "Big Four" as the sources do, but defines "major league" with very specific criteria, and then includes CFL, which struggles to meet most of them. The article's definitions of "major" in a sports context, or "major league" outside of the context of baseball, are largely unsupported by the cited sources in favor of the term "Big Four", which includes only the NHL, NFL, NBA, and MLB.

It might be better for this article to be retitled and refocused. Since the cited sources support and align on the "Big Four" definition of NFL, MLB, NBA, and NHL, this article could focus entirely on those (as it mostly already does, in terms of WP:RS/WP:IS-supported citations). The sole opinion column cited in this article as supporting the inclusion of MLS and CFL as "major leagues" is an opinion-led source, which itself relies on Google search volume data to make its case, which due to WP:GOOGLELIMITS is difficult to support as the foundation of a definition of "major league" and thus the structure and inclusion in this article. (And the case isn't helped by how that same opinion piece supports listing Liga MX over either MLS or CFL as a "major" league.)

MLS, CFL, and other notable but smaller leagues than the Big Four could then be described separately, whether in their own article or ideally merged with the existing prominent women's sports leagues in the United States and Canada into a gender-neutral prominent sports leagues in the United States and Canada (or North America). By separating the well-defined, source-supported "Big Four" designation from other top-flight leagues, we could fix the structural problem forced on the matter by the relatively poorly defined "major league" designation—usage of which is only really supported in the context of differentiating Major and Minor League Baseball from each other—without slighting how any of the leagues involved are described or compared.

It also opens the possibility of including and comparing other leagues that are notably prominent within their sports in a similar fashion, like Major League Rugby, National Lacrosse League, Canadian Premier League, and if Mexico's included Liga MX, Liga MX Femenil, Mexican League, Mexican Pacific League, or Liga Nacional de Baloncesto Profesional.

This would also help reduce systemic bias issues that arise from rightfully omitting women's leagues from the subject of the Big Four leagues but also wedging CFL into the major definition. If CFL is "major" only in a Canadian context, then it's in the wrong article; if CFL is "major" in a combined US/Canada context, then arguably the now-larger NWSL and WNBA, with higher team valuations, comparable player pay, and comparable revenue as of 2022, are too.

An article for prominent leagues not in the Big Four also helps address having separate-but-differently maintained articles on leagues that are each defined by gender, which makes creating meaningful and relevant factual comparisons between women's, men's, and co-ed leagues as organizations and businesses arbitrarily more difficult.

Much of the rest of the article appears to be WP:SYNTH of the component leagues' articles, or of well-cited (but also now outdated) metrics in order to reflect commonalities between the leagues. In the process, it adds unprovable or editorialized statements that aren't made in either the cited sources or on the leagues' main or related articles. That cleanup is a separate concern; most of that content could be removed, and much of the cited content that's not included on the league articles could be moved to them and summarized much more succinctly here. -Socccc (talk) 00:49, 10 June 2023 (UTC)

Agreed. Especially about removing CFL from the article. It isn't anymore relevant in the United States as the XFL is. Listen1st (talk) 18:34, 22 May 2024 (UTC)

Simpler title/name

So after some more research I have found that suggesting the term Northern America is best as it only encompasses the United States and Canada. “Northern American major professional sports leagues” is what I had in mind. Banan14kab (talk) 21:04, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

In general usage, it's just called "North America", and the article used to be at that title. However, some people objected to that as Mexico isn't included, hence the move to "United States and Canada". I'm not sure that "Northern America" is recognizable enough to use in the title, and remember it also includes Greenland and Bermuda, which aren't in the scope of this article. Let's just keep it where it's at if we can't use "North America". BilCat (talk) 21:15, 26 June 2023 (UTC)

MLS has surpassed NHL and NBA in average attendance

MLS is clearly growing faster than the other two sports. It's average attendance is higher and with the new Apple TV deal it's TV money is higher than NHL. It's still drawn as a minor "Other Major League" sport. At minimum, it should be ahead of the NHL which is clearly niche. Mwrab (talk) 23:15, 7 September 2023 (UTC)

MLS has few games and cheaper tickets than the NHL and NBA, and the NHL's deal with ESPN and Turner are worth more. Any argument that the MLS is above the NHL is one's personal opinion and not factual. 67.208.58.12 (talk) 01:25, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

MLS has surpassed them in attendance because they play in outdoor stadiums with larger capacities; so this doesn't feel like a valid argument for determining popularity. Not to mention NHL/NBA play 82 games per season. MLS sits way behind the Big 4 in revenue as well. 2601:647:5900:5D0:D8B:6D55:C737:2D48 (talk) 06:15, 11 February 2024 (UTC)

Revenue seems like a mildly arbitrary and vague line to what determines "major" versus "non-major," especially when I could be fairly sure if I search up reliable sources, I could find a sufficient outside sources referring to MLS as one of the "majors." That being said, do we have any actual definition as to what defines a "major" league versus a "minor" league, or is this just being decided by "some of them make more money?" - Navarre0107 (talk) 16:44, 15 February 2024 (UTC)