Talk:March equinox/Archives/2020

Merge suggestion

nto Spring equinox. Most of information seems to be repetitive. Mahanchian 11:27, 20 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes, and actually all equinox articles (spring, March, autumn, September, First Point of Aries) should be merged into one only (Equinox). That also would eliminate the hemisphere bias arising with only the proposed merge. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Woodstone (talk • contribs) 06:35, 21 March 2006‎ (UTC)

Yes, but only if all the equinox articles are merged. The March equinox and September equinox articles are relatively new and were added to deal with the hemisphere bias of the Vernal equinox and Autumn equinox articles. It makes no sense to merge the March equinox and Vernal equinox articles alone. The two are quite different in the southern hemisphere. I never liked the idea of there being separate articles for spring and autumn equinoxes. The same considerations apply to the solstice articles Summer solstice, Winter solstice, June solstice and December solstice. Karl 09:13, 21 March 2006 (UTC)

March equinox and September equinox reflect the Gregorian calendar; other calendars in use have different names. Arguably better terms for all these events reflect what is actually occuring: Northern equinox, Northern solstice, Southern equinox and Southern solstice. But best would be just Equinox and Solstice and a bunch of redirects. mdf 04:06, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Yes we could use Northward equinox, Northern solstice, Southward equinox and Southern solstice, but the meaning would be less obvious to a casual reader. Karl 09:05, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

Anything less than obvious can be explained in the article – if anything, that's what an encyclopedia is for. mdf 18:43, 22 March 2006 (UTC)

I would like to suggest March equinox as the main article (hemispherically unbiased), redirected from First Point of Aries and Vernal equinox; likewise September equinox redirected from First Point of Libra and Autumnal equinox. Or even better: one Equinox article (calendarically unbiased) for all of them. --Tauʻolunga 07:59, 1 July 2006 (UTC)

This is a perfect example of the whole problem. March Equinox may be "hemispherically unbiased", it may appear sensible to many people, and it may be a real term in actual use (in some places), but it isn't the most common term used for the subject, especially in an encyclopaedic context. Wikipedia isn't here to change the world (to be "more sensible" or "correct"), it is here to document the world as it is (with a strong explicit bias to the English-speaking world, hence a strong implicit bias whether you like it or not, to the the northern hemisphere). See WP:COMMONNAME. Lithopsian (talk) 13:41, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

more precise Solstice and Equinox times

The English speaking world seems to be limited to approximate Solstice and Equinox times, to about the nearest minute.
The French offer a more precise, to the second, master table:

• fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mod%C3%A8le:Solstice-%C3%A9quinoxe

2013 	20 	11:01:55 	21 	05:03:57 	22 	20:44:08 	21 	17:11:00
2014 	20 	16:57:05 	21 	10:51:14 	23 	02:29:05 	21 	23:03:01
2015 	20 	22:45:09 	21 	16:37:55 	23 	08:20:33 	22 	04:47:57
2016 	20 	04:30:11 	20 	22:34:11 	22 	14:21:07 	21 	10:44:10
2017 	20 	10:28:38 	21 	04:24:09 	22 	20:01:48 	21 	16:27:57
2018 	20 	16:15:27 	21 	10:07:18 	23 	01:54:05 	21 	22:22:44
Références :   mars • juin • sept. • déc.
Institut de mécanique céleste et de calcul des éphémérides

Most WP readers do not care about this -- but some might like access to the more accurate times. How can we provide such access in a good way? Would we ever want to replace our template master table with a more-precise master table of times? -71.174.188.32 (talk) 19:15, 22 December 2015 (UTC)

Return to original image of equinox illumination...

The original image is returned to the lede of this this page because it's caption and graphics are germane to the narrative and are helpful to the reader. The substituted image, "astronomical calculations..", is deleted because it offers only confusion and puzzlement to the reader—its caption does not comport even with its own graphics, nor with the lede. No explanations were provided for the removal of the original image (see> View history: (.. 04:01, 31 July 2013‎ TeraCard ...) or for the meaning (context) of the "astronomical calculations.." image when it was inserted (see> View history: (.. 08:42, 3 March 2013‎ Teheraner ...). //Jbeans (talk) 20:52, 10 March 2016 (UTC)

Earliest and latest dates

Before I get down to checking this with some software, the statement "On the Gregorian calendar the Northward equinox can occur as early as March 19 or as late as March 21" - does anyone know if that takes into account time zones? For instance, the equinox could be on 19 March but only in time zones significantly west of the Greenwich Meridian; right or wrong? MidnightBlue (Talk) 14:23, 20 March 2016 (UTC)

In the beginning of the 20th century, March 22nd was possible in the far east- Japf (talk) 22:31, 25 March 2017 (UTC)

References

Name of article

The very name of this article is uncited. I also don't see any citation for the claim that the equinox which occurs in March is called the "Autumnal Equinox" in the southern hemisphere. When I lived in Australia, my recollection is that it was called the vernal equinox (though people don't talk about it all that much because it's not considered the official beginning of autumn there).

The OED defines it as "The vernal or spring equinox is at present on the 20 March, and the autumnal on the 22 or 23 September. Just before the reformation of the calendar they were 11 days earlier."

The Free Dictionary defines (using American Heritage) "vernal equinox" as "1. One of two points at which the ecliptic intersects the celestial equator. At the vernal equinox, the sun is moving along the ecliptic in a northeasterly direction. 2. The moment at which the sun passes through this point on or about March 21, marking the beginning of spring in the Northern Hemisphere and autumn in the Southern Hemisphere."

Merriam Webster says in the "did you know" (not the actual definition) "In the northern hemisphere, the vernal equinox marks the first day of spring and occurs when the sun moves north across the equator. (Vernal comes from the Latin word ver, meaning "spring.") The autumnal equinox marks the first day of autumn in the northern hemisphere and occurs when the sun crosses the equator going south."

All of these are consistent with "vernal equinox" being used globally to refer to the equinox around March 21, even in the southern hemisphere. From a very quick web search, the only mentions of "March equinox" or "Northward equinox" that I see are based on this Wikipedia article. So are there any reliable sources which support the name used in this article?

I certainly could be wrong here. But frankly, the name of this article sounds to me like a Wikipedia editor applying common sense rather than following the convention that's actually used in the real world. —Alex (Ashill | talk | contribs) 19:19, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

March equinox is certainly used, and in sources that are definitely not based on Wikipedia. It is far from the most common usage though. Northward equinox I've also seen but its very rare. I'm not aware of anyone calling it the autumnal equinox in the southern hemisphere. I guess there's no reason I would be, but even if it happens it is a stupid idea because now nobody has a clue what's going on instead of some people wondering if the name is really appropriate. Regardless of common-sense or confusion by folks standing upside down, WP:COMMONNAME would indicate that the title should be Vernal equinox. It is worth noting that Equinox states "In the southern hemisphere, the vernal equinox occurs in September and the autumnal equinox in March.", again with no citation. They really seem to have done a number on this a couple of years ago, nixing the article Vernal equinox and its ilk in favour of more politically correct but apparently less commonly-used terminology. Lithopsian (talk) 20:07, 20 March 2017 (UTC)

Agreed, it should be called 'vernal equinox'. Here's what appears to be a decent reference for the definition:

Lang, Kenneth (2013), Astrophysical Formulae: Space, Time, Matter and Cosmology, Astronomy and Astrophysics Library (3 ed.), Springer, p. 12, ISBN 3662216396

The article should also note that the vernal equinox is the origin point of the Right Ascension coordinate. Praemonitus (talk) 16:37, 21 March 2017 (UTC)

Disagree - that is a convention we certainly don't use in the Southern Hemisphere. I am Australian, and it is very clear we just had the Autumnal Equinox, not Vernal. I have no doubt you can find a number of books printed in the Northern hemisphere which ignore the distinction, because it is the POV where the authors come from and where they expect their readers to come from. On the other hand, you could look at something like Ellyard, David; Tirion, Wil (2001). The southern sky guide (2nd ed. ed.). Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. p. 78. ISBN 9780521789585. {{cite book}}: |edition= has extra text (help), which says "the Sun crosses the celestial equator going north and reaches a point among the western stars of Pisces around 21 March. The entry of the Sun into Pisces therefore marks the northern vernal equinox (the autumn equinox for the Southern Hemisphere)."

Or Mensing, G. Faure, T.M. (2007). Introduction to planetary science: the geological perspective. Dordrecht: Springer. p. 101. ISBN 9781402055447.{{cite book}}: CS1 maint: multiple names: authors list (link) which shows a table (which I won't reproduce here) showing that the Northern vernal equinox is the Southern autumnal equinox.

It is also consistent with the article about Solstices, which make the distinction clear: there is an article each for Summer/Winter and June/December variants. You can also find books which call late December the "Winter Solstice" - and I hope you aren't proposing we adopt that.

If you want a reference for the name, how about the following from Flammarion, Camille (2014). Popular Astronomy. Cambridge University Press. p. 26. ISBN 9781108067843.: "In place of speaking of the winter solstice, the summer solstice, the vernal equinox, the autumnal equinox, it would be better to speak of the December solstice, the June solstice, the equinox of March, and the equinox of September. These denominations apply to the whole Earth..." --Gronk Oz (talk) 16:54, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Wikipedia doesn't argue for what makes sense, it documents what already is. The fact you needed three paragraphs to explain why this makes sense is precisely why it shouldn't be this way. Simply examine publications of various types and see what terminology is used, then document it. See WP:NOT. Lithopsian (talk) 17:03, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

It seems to me that we now have a reference that says that it should be called the March equinox. But I don't see any evidence that "March equinox" is the common name anywhere. "Vernal equinox" or "Spring equinox" are very obviously the common names in the northern hemisphere; there's some evidence (less clear to me) that "autumnal equinox" is the common name in the southern hemisphere. Reflecting all of this clearly in the article is more important to me than the name of the article. Making up a name that isn't commonly used anywhere in the interest of being neutral is my main objection to "March equinox" as the title. —Alex (Ashill | talk | contribs) 17:50, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Done, re sidereal time/right ascension.

Thanks. I've found one source that explicitly says it's called the autumnal equinox in the southern hemisphere ("First day of Spring 2017: Interesting facts about the vernal equinox", Telegraph, March 21, 2017), but not nearly as good a source as that textbook. I also found a few Australian news articles that refer to the equinox in September as vernal ([1], [2]), but some in the same newspaper that refer to the equinox in March as vernal ([3]). —Alex (Ashill | talk | contribs) 17:36, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Huh? The reason I took three paragraphs was because I gave three published sources, and also referred to the related Wikipedia articles for consistency. Not because I was giving my personal opinion. --Gronk Oz (talk) 17:40, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Ugh, I think having five separate articles each for solstice and equinox (the solstice/equinox article itself plus March equinox, vernal/spring equinox, September equinox, and autumnal equinox) is a duplicative mess. Why do we have separate articles for each solstice anyway? Vernal equinox may merit an article for itself because of the rites of spring and related holidays as well as its importance as the sidereal time/right ascension zero point (which wasn't even mentioned in the article until just now), but otherwise, is there anything that is or could/should be in this article or September equinox that isn't best folded in to equinox itself? Or should the articles just be merged? —Alex (Ashill | talk | contribs) 17:44, 24 March 2017 (UTC)

Thank you for raising the astronomical context. The Vernal Equinox is not only a date but a point (direction) in space. It is the position of the sun when it crosses the celestial equator in a northward direction. This location continues to exist 365 days a year, indeed is most often seen in the night sky at any time other than March. The implication in this article that this location in the sky is somehow different depending on which Earth hemisphere it is observed from is blatantly false (as well as uncited). Vernal equinox is the proper name of this location and then also of the date. Calling it "spring equinox" to protect those poor souls who we imagine are frightened of Latin terms just starts the confusion, and calling it the March equinox is an attempt to WP:RGW because it isn't yet the widely-accepted terminology. Lithopsian (talk) 13:54, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Is it time to make a formal proposal? While it wouldn't be binding, it seems like merge (with) Equinox would be preferred to renaming, if any change is to be made? Lithopsian (talk) 13:57, 5 April 2017 (UTC)

Does the name of an article need a citation? I don;t see such a request begin made of the article on the September Equinox. Surely the information that follows the title should be sufficient to explain the title. Leaving that aside, I think life for wiki readers would be easier if all the articles on equinoxes could be rolled up into one with sufficient information to remind people that spring and autumn normally come at the same time of year, though which you are experiencing rather depends on whether you are in the southern or the northern hemisphere. 86.133.193.173 (talk) 09:40, 6 May 2017 (UTC)

I don't know that the title needs a citation, but when the title is contentious then some form of documentation for it would be helpful. Right now, it seems that the least notable and recognisable term has been chosen because an editor deemed it to be more "correct". A citation that showed it to be in widespread use (preferably both technical and lay) would support the use of this title. Of course no such citation exists in this case, presumably why the tag was added (hint, hint). Lithopsian (talk) 15:39, 7 May 2017 (UTC)

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Redirecting from "vernal equinox" without disclaimer - Let's add a disclaimer

I actually like the first paragraph, and the fact that vernal equinox is in bold as a head word, because it is. I see that everyone debated this at length, I think the article itself is in good shape. I would change two things:

First: Typing "vernal equinox" redirects here (March equinox) immediately. Unlike some redirects, it does not give a disclaimer like this:

"Redirected from vernal equinox, if you want the equinox that occurs in spring in the Southern Hemisphere then see September equinox."

The disclaimer is called a hatnote, although there are usually more specific templates than {{hatnote}} itself, for example {{redirect}}. They are considered important where there could be confusion, but not everyone loves them and they shouldn't be used just to make a point. If some people are being redirected here and they wanted to go somewhere else (or just arriving here and wanting to be somewhere else), then a hatnote is appropriate. The redirect should still usually be mentioned in the lead and that may be sufficient. However, if people are being redirected here and are still confused about why then the article needs to be edited. Lithopsian (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

I know they call it the "vernal equinox" in Australia when speaking English, this is a term in common use in both hemispheres in the language of this edition of Wikipedia. But "vernal" is a cognate with numerous words for "spring", and it simply doesn't happen in spring in the southern hemisphere.

The lead paragraph says the exact opposite. The debate over what term is actually used by real people in the southern hemisphere, and what term people "in the know" use of think should be used is ongoing. But don't let that stop you wading in. I happen to agree that the article has swung too far towards what (some editors think) should be instead of what is.Lithopsian (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Second: The article doesn't mention the etymology of vernal, that it means spring, or that it comes from multiple languages which very much developed in the Northern Hemisphere, and which are primarily spoken in the Northern Hemisphere. I think this is a time when etymology and the geographic origins of words is very important to point out for readers. We may also want to point out that many English speakers don't realize or care that it means spring, and use the term in either hemisphere or at the equator, because many sources consider this to be the equinox that occurs in March when named in English. Fluoborate (talk) 05:15, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Go for it. Check through all the other equinox-related articles first though. There are quite a few and more cross-referencing is probably better then more content overlap. Lithopsian (talk) 14:37, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Delete "March equinox solar year" section

Unless someone can successfully defend it, I intend to delete the section " March equinox solar year".

The section contains a {{full}} template for the citation to Meeus and Savoie, which is currently just a short footnote. I believe this is indicative of a botched cut and paste, probably from "Tropical year". The current section, being improperly cited, is highly suspect.

I believe it is better to leave coverage of this topic at "Tropical year". Duplicating it here invites the accidental or intentional introduction of contradictions between the two articles. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:04, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

On further investigation I see the section was created by a user that was later indefinitely blocked as a sock puppet. Per WP:DENY I leave it to anyone who cares to figure out who that was. In light of this I am deleting the section immediately. Jc3s5h (talk) 15:16, 20 March 2018 (UTC)

Vernal Equinox

Can someone please put this in the main heading. it is not called the "March Equinox" here in the UK. It is called the "Vernal Equinox" or the "Spring Equinox".

There are plenty of English dictionaries and other sources which back up my claim - as I am sure many editors here are fully aware. In fact I would suggest that you make "Spring Equinox" the main title and Vernal the second. If the US uses "March Equinox" then include that as a third.

At the very least "Vernal Equinox" should be in the first sentence! John2o2o2o (talk) 09:22, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

= Here is one: https://news.nationalgeographic.com/2018/03/what-is-vernal-equinox-spring-sun-moon-earth-science/

- The National Geographic does not use "March Equinox" - I suggest you don't either. John2o2o2o (talk) 09:27, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

Have you read the sections above, #Name of article and #Redirecting from "vernal equinox" without disclaimer - Let's add a disclaimer?

The National Geographic article you refer to states "This celestial alignment results in the equinox—a day with light and dark of (nearly) equal length, with the sun rising precisely in the east and setting precisely in the west. This year, the vernal, or spring, equinox will occur on Tuesday, March 20." Apparently, National Geographic thinks of itself as an American magazine, and in an American context, the statement is true. But in an international context the statement is false. Jc3s5h (talk) 14:48, 21 March 2018 (UTC)

The article is called March equinox, so it pretty much has to be the primary term in the lead. Much discussion has been had about renaming the article to the historically and scientifically dominant term Vernal equinox or the increasingly-popular term Spring equinox. The consensus was that we should stick with the term March equinox despite being infrequently used by most English speakers. Lithopsian (talk) 14:51, 21 March 2018 (UTC)