Talk:Marcus Tullius Cicero (Rome character)

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My only real source for the information in the two sections I edited (personality and character history) is the dvd itself. How should this best be cited, and is it even an acceptable source in the first place? Sorry, I'm new at this.Militiades 18:30, 22 November 2006 (UTC)

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How is it that some of the major characters on the Rome characters (like Brutus for example) have their page redirected to the real person, whereas a lesser character who doesn't show up that often has this page with hardly anything on it? --82.34.129.75 21:19, 17 November 2006 (UTC)

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Comparison to Historical Cicero

I added an edit to point out that his own contemporaries viewed Cicero very much in the way the show portrayed him: long on ideals but short on action. In what way did Cicero ever oppose Sulla? Are you referring to the Chrysogonus trial? Seems to me Cicero fought for Sulla's ally Pompey Strabo during Sulla's invasion of Italy.Militiades 19:09, 28 December 2006 (UTC)

Are you certain that all of Cicero's contemporaries viewed him as a coward? One cannot make this decision based on (say) Plutarch who lived 80 years after, and is hardly a contemporary. Wikipedia states that Sallust, an actual contemporary, does not treat Cicero "unfairly", and Sallust was a partisan of Caesar's, to say nothing of an actual historian (rather than a moralizer like Plutarch) so it would be interesting to read what Sallust had to say about Cicero. Here's an interestig quote from Wikipedia on Sallust: "[A]n attack upon Cicero (Invectiva or Declamatio in Ciceronem), frequently attributed to Sallust, probably come from the pen of a rhetorician of the first century AD, also the author of a counter-invective attributed to Cicero."

Let me stress that I am not a historical scholar, but I am sufficiently familiar with Roman history that a depiction of Cicero as "timorous" is ludicrous. For example: It is difficult to reconcile Cicero's behavior during the Catiline conspiracy with a "timorous" character, and that is my major familiarity with it. As to opposing Sulla, my authority comes not from the DVD but from Wikipedia itself: Taking this case was a courageous move for Cicero; ...the people whom Cicero accused of the murder — the most notorious being Chrysogonus — were favourites of Sulla. At this time it would have been easy for Sulla to have Cicero murdered, as Cicero was barely known in the Roman courts. ...Cicero's successful defence was an indirect challenge to the dictator Sulla. Of course, Cicero during the time of Julius Caesar was an older man, older than Caesar even (Cicero was in his 60s, Caesar in his late 50s). Cicero as portrayed in the television show looks younger than Caesar. Having been exiled once and lost his daughter only a few years earlier (an event that) I should think that "timorous" is the wrong word. "Tired" seems more appropriate, certainly not "cynical" or "cowardly". Simplex 01:35, 27 May 2007 (UTC)

Class?

The class (patrician/plebeian) of the character Cicero is never explicitly mentioned in the series, but he is listed as a patrician on this page. Although he is usually seen siding with the patricians, the historical figure was in fact plebeian. Shouldn't the page reflect this? Varlet16 23:50, 1 July 2007 (UTC)

According to Wikipedia's page on Cicero, he was an equestrian, which according to the page on Equestrians is higher than a plebeian but lower than a patrician. The page is about the show. HBO's web page for Cicero doesn't comment at all on his class. Simplex 11:30, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Spineless?

I wouldn't call Cisero spineless at all. Did you here that speech he wrote about Mark Anthony. Terribly funny. And giving himself up to Pullo was quite a courageous thing to do. The only thing he does in the series that could be interpreted as cowardly was agreeing to assist Anthony after he threatened to pour molten gold down Cisero's throat but I wouldn't call that cowardly and even after that he still defied him. Albeit after he was out of the city but that's more sensible than cowardly really. Would you sit around in Rome waiting for Mark Anthony to come after you after you'd called him a drink-sodden wretch and told him that a woman's role suited him?

Having now watched part of the second season, I must say that I am even more depressed to see the Philippics reduced to a calling Mark Anthony a drink-sodden, sex-crazed wretch--and what's more, the historical inaccuracy of Cicero's being absent. The real Cicero delivered the first of the Philippics in person.Simplex (talk) 07:24, 31 January 2009 (UTC)

As I recall, the comment was written before the show's second season. Perhaps that's the reason: I haven't watched the second season yet, but during the first season Cicero was definitely portrayed as spineless. Simplex 11:32, 22 July 2007 (UTC)

Agreed. I can agree that Cicero is not particularly brave. Particularly not if you compare him to the many brave other characters in the series who are extremely calm and collected in dangerous situations. He is in the uncomfortable situation of being a moderate who tries to prevent civil war, he cares about preserving the republic but he does not want to die for a lost cause. He perceives this as cowardice, and is embarrassed by his failure to live up to harsh Roman ideals (most modern westerners who have less respect for fanaticism and martyrdom would just consider him realistic and practical or perhaps more involved in other duties such as the duty to stay alive for the sake of his family and household). This proves that he is not shameless. When threatened he often gives in, but makes some sort of face-saving gesture. For instance, he does not abandon the anti-caesar faction until he can do so with Brutus and when intimidated by the brute Marc Antony he insist to actually be threatened, refusing to give in to mere innuendo. Would I be braver if confronted with a very concrete and credible threat to my life? Probably not. If I had a family and other people that depended on me: definitely not.

The current description is just a wordy and long-winded way of saying that the man is a spineless coward, which is wrong and unfair. I have changed the text to better reflect what the character really is like in the series. -Sensemaker

Age

Someone needs to mention that fact that Cicero was much older then he is protrayed in the series and many documents of the period describe him as half to nearly completely blind.

It is true that Cicero opposed Sulla but this opposition to Catalina could have just been a trumped up charge invented by Cicero himself. Cicero revieled in the fact that he got away with killing Roman Citizens without trial. However, as he grew older fear of retribution shows signs in his works. Scholars even to this day are not convinced of Catalina's guilt since only Cicero tells us it is true and his only proof was obtained by torturing a man that was imediatly killed after the so called confession so that he could not change his words later. This is a very good insight into understanding the actions and weakness of Cicero during the Caesarian years. Also, when Cicero was finally killed, not only his hands that wrote the peaches about Anthony but also this head that proclaimed them in the forum was nailed to the Rostra. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 58.89.146.222 (talk) 13:33, 1 March 2008 (UTC)

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