Talk:Marin Beçikemi

Marin Beçikemi to Marino Becichemmo

I think that is it appropriate to change the name of the article from Albanian version to Latin Version. Reasons are below: Marin was a writer and humanist who has written his works in Latin, as stated in sources and which could be seen from the names of his works. He was born in Schoder, today in Albania and in that time part of Venice, family of Slavic origin from Paštrovići,but he spent main part of his life outside the Schoder in other Venetian and Italian cities like Padoa where he worked and has written majority of his works. As he is connected to the Venice and was a Venetian writer, and as he was mentioned as Marino Becichemmo or Marin Becich/Bečić in majority of the literature - from Italian in one side (especially taking into the cound the ones by Italian authors, but in English language), to Croatian, Montenegrin and Serbian on another, and as this is English language Wikipedia, I think that it should be appropriate to follow English based literature and change the name according to that. James Jim Moriarty (talk) 17:29, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Please sign, whoever this was.--Calthinus (talk) 14:46, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Dialogue-less edit warring

It has come to my attention that this article has been the subject of largely WP:LAME edit warring back and forth over the ethnicity of the subject--involving Βατο on one side and a two man team of James Jim Moriarty and FkpCascais on the other, neither side using the talk page. Earlier venerable participants in the glorious joust included Ktrimi991 and Zoupan. On the "Albanian" side it seems we have only Albanian scholarship, on the "Slav" side we have only Yugoslav scholarship, and it appears the international scholarship says nothing afaik about this probably because they (quite reasonably) don't give a crap about such a dumb matter. There has been virtually zero attempt on either side to accommodate opposing views alongside their own in accordance with WP:NPOV. That is what I propose -- remove ethnicity from the lede (it's not supposed to be there anyways, instead you talk about citizenship), move usable sources into a new "Ethnicity Controversy" section, and quarantine the madness there. Does this work for you guys?--Calthinus (talk) 14:46, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

There is no Albanian source backing an Albanian origin on the article. I added some Italian sources about his Albanian origin. On Pastorevici origin, the claims belong to the Yugoslav way of research, and they are of little to no value counting the reliable sources that support the Albanian origin. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:19, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Fair enough-- the Italian sources added do seem reliable, and the claim of his origins near Cattaro don't seem to occur outside of Yugoslav scholarship (afaik), true.--Calthinus (talk) 17:30, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

As for changing the name, I am glad that you guys accepted my idea I gave above. I just forgot to sign. I explained that as this is English Wikipedia, we should use the naming used in literature in English - simple. As for negative nationalism and other stuff, everybody knows that there is no room for that and I hope that we all follow that.

The problem is not whether or not Marin felt as Albanian and was considered as Albanian - but of his family origins which weren't explained or studied in these Italian sources, but are claimed as Slavic in Croatian, Yugoslav, Serbian and Montenegrin sources (take into account that it was mentioned there before and after Yugoslavia existed).

I reverted edits by Ktrimi991, because his Wikipedia:IDONTLIKEIT method. He saw that there are contemporary Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin sources (not Yugoslav as the term is wrongly used here) in which they explain that his family is by origin from Paštrovići tribe. He just claimed that these are "fringed" sources - but left them for other parts of the text and also he needed to say that "These fringed sources are from one country, Yugoslavia" or something like that, as that "Yugoslavian" origin is something problematic. And these sources were from contemporary time, independently written in a different former-Yugoslav countries. That started this whole editing stuff. The territory of the Paštrovići tribe is near Kotor - the western side of the territory was the town of Budva and follows Montenegrin littoral to the south of the country close to Ulcinj so, thats why "near Cattaro" was mentioned in these sources. Bečićs from Paštrovići came there from Zeta plains and before that, in Zeta from Čevo in Cetinje. I proposed Zoupan to help with the expansion of this article. He added some sources and expanded the article and just because he putted from there origin of Marinus family as Slavic, Ktrimi991 deleted not just that, but reverted all of his edited text and wanted consensus on something in the talk page which he didn't defined. For example, here [1]. He claimed that the sources are from Yugoslavia while it was fine to him to leave source from Croatia, or per him, "Yugoslav source" in which was also concluded that Becichemo's family originaly descended from Paštrovići. Also, Ktrimi991 in his reverts here, [2], claimed that partisan sources were used. You can easily check that deleted sources weren't partisan, but from Serbian/Montenegrin and one from Italian literature.

Also, I will demonstrate in short the part of the logic these Croatian/Montenegrin etc sources follows, in order to keep it short. Surname Becich which is found in Slavs in Schoder in the beginning of 15th century. Look Acta Albanie Veneta from 1443 and similar censuses from that area in these years, to see that in Venetian documents surname is in it's Slavic form "Becich". If you don't have copies of original documents, you can look it from here as it is partially given [3]. There also other reasons, but you can simply read the sources. It is too long to describe it here. Also, one interesting thing I have read somewhere, but as I really do not remember that one Croatian source I think, I didn't putted that in the article and you should consider this as synthesis. The only "Becichemo" mentioned in these years is "Piero Becich" (heads of families are mentioned in majority). This is in the years when Marins grandfather lived. Could he be that Peter, Marins grandfather? It is interesting theory.

Back to the topic, FkpCascais reacted to edits, but he was careful and in his explanations asked where he was mentioned as Albanian, except in Albanian literature. Nobody forbid that Albanian sources, or any valid sources should be used, I am not against that and I don't know from where Ktrimi991 got it. It was just said that that point should be expanded with the sources from other countries, as Ktrimi991 has a problem with sources from former Yugoslavia for claimed Slavic origin and deleted them with weak explanations. From the language and the fact that Schoder had Albanian majority in that time, it is almost very probable that Marin felt that way, but as it could be seen, not ethnic Albanian by origin by these Croatian etc. sources. After my first edit after checked other sources, I brought back the term "Albanian" into the text (Venetian-Albanian, as he lived in Venetian cities) as it was confirmed in sources and I done that again after edits by other users.

Also, you have pre-Yugoslav source from a journal "Archiv für slavische Philologie" about Slavic writers published by Weidmannsche Buchhandlung in Berlin. It was started by ethnic Croat Vatroslav Jagić, with the support of German historians who also worked and helped for the articles in journal (see the link) [4]. Marin Becichemo was also mentioned and shortly described, and in the catalogue also Slavic form "Becichi" of his surname.

In his edits, Ktrimi991 deleted and claimed that Schoder was never part of Venetian Albania [5] so the question is was the Schoder under Venice. Here are the sources which confirms shows that Schoder was under the rule of Venice when Marin was born up till he was forced to leave when Ottomans have taken that. The last one explicitly mentions "Venetian Albania" and concludes Schoder - After the fall, the name was left for the venetian territories in Montenegro.

So, if the "terrific" problem for some users is the fact that mainly Croatian, Serbian and Montenegrin sources considers his family as Slavic by origin (and Italian and other sources in majority do not deal with that topic), and as that we have me, FkpCascais and Zoupan on one side and Ktrimi991 on another, that the solution should be the same one from the article about Marin Barleti. There the problem was solved as "Italian sources considers him as Italian, while in Albanian scholarship he is considered as Albanian. As it was done there, I don't see any problem to make here and put an end to this editing stuff because it seems that on contrary this will not end. It should be stated in the text that his family is Slavic by origin, per Croatian/Montenegrin etc source. After all, this should end with, as Calthinus said once, "and they edited happily ever after". As for the rest of the article, Marin Becichemo is a person upon which there is a lot to write and his origin, while not unimportant, is also not the main topic of this and I call all of you to focus more on his work. That should be a main focus, just as it is in most of Italian, English, Croatian, Montenegrin, Serbian and literature mentioned used here. Kind regards, James Jim Moriarty (talk) 13:27, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

Trim the text you placed above. It is too long. Short and concise, that is the right way. Ktrimi991 (talk) 13:32, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

This is short and concise. Paragraph by paragraph. I will try it to short it even more. James Jim Moriarty (talk) 13:42, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

The right way is not shortest one, but correct one. This is shortest as I could. James Jim Moriarty (talk) 14:05, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I strongly encourage you to take up blogging. I will respond to this when I actually have time for... all that.--Calthinus (talk) 18:16, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

I put the points paragraph by paragraph. It is better to have everything at one place. I am not very familiar with slang or similar, so I don't know what you meant with that blogging stuff. As for the text, of course, this is a discussion, so let us discuss and of course I expect from you to answer and see what can we do about this. As said, editing and reverting without dialogue and consensus in meaningless, especially after pretty poor topic of whether or not his family is Slavic origin. James Jim Moriarty (talk) 18:35, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

As I checked better what Calthinus proposed above, I removed him from the above text in the one he mentioned that I misunderstood him. James Jim Moriarty (talk) 18:57, 17 April 2018 (UTC)

References

Propose move: Marinus Becichemus Scodrensis

This is the name he called himself in his writings, which were in Latin (see: [[6]] [[7]]). All the other names-- Albanian, Serbo-Croatian, and Italian-- are effectively neologisms. This name also dodges the contentious issue of his ethnicity. Not only is this name most correct, it also is the best way to observe NPOV on this contentious issue.--Calthinus (talk) 15:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

Support as proposer.--Calthinus (talk) 15:47, 16 April 2018 (UTC)

• Support - been watching this silly farce over names the past few days. Calthinus' proposal is neutral, as per reasons outlined and i agree to it.Resnjari (talk) 15:51, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support as per reasons outlined by Calthinus. — Βατο (talk) 16:56, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
• Support seems to be a reasonable option, and it does not misrepresent his ethnic identity. Ktrimi991 (talk) 17:20, 16 April 2018 (UTC)
• Clear support as proposed by proposer.--Lorik17 (talk) 19:40, 12 October 2021 (UTC)

Requested move 30 October 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. (non-admin closure) ‡ The Night Watch ω (talk) 18:35, 7 November 2022 (UTC)

---

Marinus Becichemus Scodrensis → Marin Beçikemi – The current name is almost never used in GoogleBooks results of the 20th century and 21st century. The proposed name is found in a number of books, such as one by Noel Malcolm. Not many results though due to the subject not having that much interest in scholarship. Ktrimi991 (talk) 22:57, 30 October 2022 (UTC)

• Support - the general trend in modern bibliography (Malcolm 2015, Hossaflook 2012, is to use native names instead of Latinized variants.--Maleschreiber (talk) 21:18, 31 October 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom, modern bibliography tends to use Marin Beçikemi. Botushali (talk) 00:08, 1 November 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.