Talk:Maron

Maron or Maroun

if his name is with u, why don't move it? --anon

Which spelling is it? Scoutersig 18:34, 21 November 2006 (UTC)

• Both spellings are correct, but one is a corruption. Maron is the traditional spelling in Older English and is pronounced (Maar-on) not (Mar-on)! However some people prefer Maroun, which is a more modern way of spelling the name of our beloved Saint Maron. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.173.96 (talk) 08:29, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

• The variation occurred because of a lack of standards for transliteration. The first is the English manner of transliteration, whereas the second is the French (which I personally feel is more accurate). Furthermore, St. Maroun in Syriac is Mor Moroun NOT Mor Maroun (if one looks at any reliable Syriac dictionary, such as Payne Smith, the mem is modified to make a mo- sound not ma-). — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.95.77 (talk) 01:16, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

• Let me help. With all due respect, in my opinion based on verifiable facts, the correct spelling of this article must be "Saint Maroun" or "Mar maroun" as widely known in his home country. His official website [1] is the highest authority on the Latin spelling of his name. Most importantly, مارون in Arabic is ALWAYS pronounced Maroun not Maron.

Worldedixor (talk) 02:54, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Google results: St Maron, 750,000; St Maroun, 1,390,000; St Moroun, 50,600. I came here to argue for Maron, but Maroun is more popular; I suggest that the various forms be acknowledged in the first sentence, but Maroun be used for the title and throughout the article. Richardson mcphillips (talk) 20:01, 9 February 2017 (UTC)

Although both spellings could be correct, the established consensus of Wikipedia could be said to be Maron - compare Syriac Maronite Church (not "Syriac Marounite Church"). Chicbyaccident (talk) 13:16, 22 May 2017 (UTC)

Saint Maroun's Crosier

How come Saint Maroun has a Crosier in the picture? It's something that only abbots and bishops get to use, and it doesn't seem as if he was either. He's called the first Patriarch of the Maronites, but that seems purely honourary since it doesn't look like he got consecrated to the Episcopate. Also, he isn't using a Mitre. J.J. Bustamante 04:55, 5 May 2007 (UTC)

If he founded a monastic order, that seems to at least strongly imply that he was the abbot of the order, at least at the beginning. At least I've never heard of a spiritual founder of a monastic order not being the first abbot. There's a page on John Maron who is the 1st patriarch but he came some time later. TMLutas 16:10, 22 May 2007 (UTC)

He's carrying a crosier for the same reason he's wearing a baroque stole- The picture was drawn much later after centuries of latinization. SaintCyprian ^Talk 15:57, 29 February 2008 (UTC)

Wasn't that statue a gift from the Catholics? If I recall, traditional Maronites oppose religious statues.

Maronites are not opposed to religious statues so long as they're not inside a church. The statue itself is, however, anachronistic. For example, Syriacs never wore a split stole (that's a Greek style stole) and only since last century did Maronites begin to wear a Greek style stole justified by historical revisionism that equated a Greek (split) stole with dyophysitism and a Syriac (single) stole with "monophysitism." It's perhaps another anachronism that he has that style of crozier since the orb surmounted by a cross is uniquely a Maronite crozier, as all other Syriacs and the Greeks have serpents on theirs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.95.77 (talk) 15:27, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Veneration and Churches

"The Maronite Church" Is not a seperate church from the Catholic Church. They belong to the Eastern rite of the Catholic Church. The "Romans" belong to the Latin rite of the Catholic Church... —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wis (talk • contribs) 00:24, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

• We call ourselves the Maronite Church, and feel free to ask any one of us. Lest you forget the Patriarch. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.92.173.96 (talk) 08:32, 2 February 2012 (UTC)

• The official name of the Maronite Church in Syriac can be translated as the Syriac Maronite Church of Antioch. It is a sui iuris Church by definition and canon law. It is in union with the Roman Church and in the Catholic Communion but nonetheless is its own Church proper. It does not belong to the "Eastern rite." Rite simply means ritual; the Maronite Church uses the Maronite rite but it does not belong to said ritual. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.95.77 (talk) 01:19, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Syrian Christian

Syriac means "Syrian Christian". You can not call him "Syriac Christian" That would be the exactly same as saying he is "Syrian Christian Christian" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.134.27 (talk) 02:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Syriac Christian refers to a Christian tradition that Maron undeniably came out of. Syrian Christian is making a claim about the man's ethnicity. Furthermore, you are pipeing the link to Syriac Christian, which is where it should go in the first place. I also encourage you to register. -- Secisek (talk) 17:43, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

But you can not call him a "Syriac Christian" since Syriac means that he is a christian. Its exactly the same thing as saying he is "Syrian-Christian Christian" Its wrong. You can say he is "Syriac" but you can not put a "Christian" after it because its already in the word Syriac.

Instead it should say that he is a "Syrian christian" or Syrian Aramaean Christian" Remember that the word Syriac is a new word and is newly invented and therefore Mar Maroun should be called what he was at that time. Just like "Ephraim the Syrian" —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.229.134.27 (talk) 20:35, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

No, it's not like that. That's two entirely different things. You are wrong, he was a Syriac Christian. Read Syriac Christianity for more info. The TriZ (talk) 22:08, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Agree with The TriZ. The IP editor seems to misunderstand the terminology here. -- Secisek (talk) 22:32, 19 December 2008 (UTC)

Syriac is also an ethnicity. That's what they call the Chaldeans/Assyrians sometimes. Syrian isn't an ethnicity. It's a nationality. Most Syrians are Arabs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.168.242.40 (talk) 11:33, 15 August 2011 (UTC)

Syriac does not mean Syrian Christian. There are Christian Arabs in Syria who are not Syriac. Just like there are Assyrian Christians in Syria. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.241.131.30 (talk) 17:07, 28 July 2012 (UTC)

St. Maroun's Martyrdom

The second illustration indicates him being beheaded, but there is no reference to this in the article. Was he martyred, and if so, by whom ? Claverhouse (talk) 23:00, 14 November 2011 (UTC)

• Agreed, that was an odd image.

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Check facts about art installed in the National Basilica (Washington DC)

The last time I visited the basilica the image of St. Maron (as well as the Crucifixion) was an icon (substantially different from any other depiction, both in mode and theology). It is by no means a mosaic, let alone a grand mosaic (it's a few feet long by maybe two feet wide).

As such, I have changed the term "grand mosaic" to the proper terminology of icon. Furthermore, I changed the wording since it seemed to be vague as to whether or not the icon of St. Maron was copied from the Rabbula Gospels (which it was not, since the Rabbula Gospels do not include an image of Maron). I also added that the icon of the Mother of Light and the Evangelists were also copied from the Rabbula Gospels. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.165.95.77 (talk) 01:08, 15 October 2013 (UTC)

Requested move

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: No consensus. Numerous alternate spellings have been put forward, but none have gained clear community support. Since the current title is in accordance with WP:COMMONNAME, and since pronunciation (in any language) is not a factor in article titles, there is no reason to move the page. Yunshui 雲‍水 09:05, 1 November 2013 (UTC)

---

Maron → Mar Maroun – His official website [2] is the highest authority on the Latin spelling of his name مارون . Most importantly, مارون in Arabic is ALWAYS pronounced Maroun not Maron. Worldedixor (talk) 03:03, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• I SUPPORT this move for the justifications presented in the move request. Worldedixor (talk) 04:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)
• Oppose - per Google Book results clearly for "Maron" (Greek spelling for a 5th Century Syriac monk not too unusual in English sources) not Maroun and definitely not Mar Maroun. Further Mar Maroun should redirect to the Beirut district. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:36, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, In ictu oculi for your much appreciated participation. I respect your opposition and obviously disagree respectfully. I feel very strongly about this as Maron just does not sound right. "مارون" is pronounced Maroun and I hope Arab speaking editors can confirm the Maroun pronunciation. Also, Maronites in Lebanon and Syria all know him as "Mar Maroun" not Maroun nor Maron. For the record "Mar Maroun" means "Saint Maroun" and he is a Saint. Most importantly, he was a Syrian monk who lived in Lebanon and is a Lebanese Saint not a Greek Saint. Whatever compromise and consensus we all reach is fine with me. Worldedixor (talk) 13:20, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thanks, I can see و, but then I can also see the Syriac ܡܪܘܢ, where long o might be better given that 5th century pre-dates any Arabic source. The issue unfortunately is WP:COMMONNAME, please take a look, thanks. In ictu oculi (talk) 13:30, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

You're welcome. You brought a point that may influence this. I don't read Syriac, but in masses, when they pray in Aramaic, they pronounce Mar Maroun as Mar Maroun, NOT as Mar Maron. I lucked out in this video [3] at 0:37 where you can hear him pronounce "marouniyten" or "maruniyten" not "maroniyten". I am not sure whether WP:COMMONNAME trumps ALL other arguments, and if it does, then it is time to close this. Worldedixor (talk) 14:23, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

• Oppose per the evidence that his name is commonly rendered as "Maron" in English-language sources, and, importantly, for hamonization with the Maronites, who explicitly spell their name that way. While there are recent English-language sources that use the spelling "Maroun", there's no evidence of a consensus in seconday sources; in such cases, consistency is a useful deciding factor. 168.12.253.66 (talk) 14:31, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, 168.12.253.66. I respect your good argument and I respectfully disagree. First, I respectfully dispute your argument on "hamonization with the Maronites". There are many instances in the English language that defeat your argument. One example: "We live in Liverpool but we are Liverpudlians". And let us not forget that he is a Lebanese Saint not in an English Saint nor an American Saint. So, I, personally, would give a little less weight to English-language sources. The absolute majority of Maronites live in Lebanon. They mostly write "مار مارون" in Arabic. When they do, IN LEBANON and SYRIA, they pronounce it "Mar Maroun" not Mar Maron. Maronites in the U.S., Australia and all over the world, are split between Saint Maron and Saint Maroun, with perhaps a weak gain for Saint Maron. The fact remains that the absolute majority of ALL Maronites all over the world pronounce it as Mar Maroun not Mar Maron, and the very few who speak Aramaic pronounce it Mor Moron. In any case, thanks a lot for your participation. Let's see how this will unfold. Ideally, a Lebanese priest who has studied Aramaic would be ideal to straighten this out unless WP:COMMONNAME trumps all.Worldedixor (talk) 14:48, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

By contrast, in this video, when he speaks strictly Aramaic, he pronounces Mar Maroun as Mor Moron. [4]. So, Mar Maron as is, is not supported by the Aramaic pronunciation. I respectfully disagree with the use of only Maron for a saint, a we would not say "Peter" when we address "Saint Peter". Ergo, it makes sense to use Mar Maroun "مار مارون" as Arabic speaking Maronites pronounce it, and as all Arabs pronounce it. If you agree, great. If not, let us agree to disagree in a civil manner. Of course, if WP:COMMONNAME trumps all, this is the end. Otherwise, I believe my arguments are valid, and perhaps a Lebanese priest who has studied Aramaic, or a native Arabic speaker who is a proficient linguist in Arabic and Aramaic can weigh in. Worldedixor (talk) 14:35, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Your point about "Liverpudlians" is well taken, but I do not say that consistency should be our primary criterion, only that it can inform our decisions when there is no clear spelling that predominates. As to your other points: We are the English Wikipedia, written in English, and we look to English-language sources to tell us what is correct in English. A video of someone pronouncing a name one way in a foreign language, with no spelling provided, is of no value. As to the religious title "Mar", the use of such religious titles is heavily discouraged in article titles, for reasons of NPOV. If we were to use such an honorific, it would be the English-language term "Saint", not "Mar". As you provide the example of Saint Peter, you might want to review the extensive discussion on Talk:Saint Peter about the article title; that article is where it is becaus there's no unified consensus about which better title is the best better title, not because "he is a saint". 168.12.253.66 (talk) 15:28, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

There are two separate issues here. The first is usage of "Mar", the second change from Maron to Maroun. Regarding addition of "Mar" to the name, I don't think Wikipedia policies accept it as this is a title meaning Saint and not a name. Saying Mar Maroun or Saint Maroun is not supported by Wikipedia rules. Saint Paul is called Paul the Apostle, and Saint Rita is reflected as Rita of Cascia. Lebanese Maronite Saint Charbel is Charbel Makhluf and Lebanese Saint Rafka is Rafqa Pietra Choboq Ar-Rayès. So Mar or Saint is not valid. So Mar or saint has to go... So we are left with Maroun or "Maroun (saint)" if you will. The present-day Lebanese mass media practice in anglophone media is firmly with Maroun. I can give countless examples of this. But check The Daily Star (the biggest Lebanese English daily), Ya Libnan website whereas mainstream francophone media sticks to Maron L'Orient Le Jour, the biggest French daily in Lebanon ... I admit that the present-day Maroun is not only correct but phonetically preferable in Arabic language. Most Maronites who are now arabophones (Arabic talking people), would clearly say Maroun or Marun, very rarely if ever Maron. Maron sounds strange even to my ears... But returning to Saint Maroun, he was clearly not an Arab, nor an arabophone either for that matter in the era he lived. He was rather a Syriac monk who established the Maronite Church, a Syriac tradition church now truly international and found not only the Middle East but in Eurpe, North and South America, Australia, Africa. So as a Syriac monk and not an Arab monk, he would have been Maron not Maroun. Also established is that in English usage Maron has some solid support even in contemporary times. Recently established Maronite eparchies in the Lebanese diaspora who arguably would have had the choice of Arabic Maroun still stuck to Maron in their official name despite being very arabophone. See Eparchy of St. Maron of Brooklyn, Eparchy of Saint Maron of Montreal, Maronite Eparchy of Saint Maron of Sydney. Of course this doesn't make Maron the predominant choice, but there is a clear trend in modern usage, despite the anglophone media in Lebanon sticking to Maroun. My heart is with Maroun (Maron even sounds strange to me, so I understand perfectly User:Worldedixor). But if cornered, I would still stick to Maron based on his Syriac origin and Western sources about him. werldwayd (talk) 23:00, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

Thank you, werldwayd, for heeding my call to participate. Very informative analysis even though I disagree with you (and with WP policy) on the prohibition of the use of Mar or Saint. In my opinion, WP is dismissing, probably disrespecting, the sentiments of billions of people in the world who want to see Saint before names of saints... BUT we are on WP and are governed by WP policy. Also, you came to the right conclusion "with your heart" that it must be spelled Maroun but then used a weak argument when you justified Maron based on his "Syriac origin". The Syriac pronunciation is "Mor Moron" not "Maron", there is a difference, and as you clearly stated, in Lebanon, where the absolute majority of Maronites are, and who would be the primary readers of this page use "مار مارون" or "Mar Maroun", and, in my opinion, that far outweighs "Syriac origin and Western sources". In any case, I value your input a lot, and I am fine with any compromise. Worldedixor (talk) 23:25, 30 October 2013 (UTC)

As I analyze all the above, and each input has its own value, it is my opinion that the name of the article should be either Saint Maroun, Maroun, or, if we want to disregard the use of "Saint" and "Mar" as per WP policy, and ignore the correct Arabic pronunciation Maroun مارون that is CURRENTLY widely used by the absolute majority of Maronites in Lebanon and Syria, and by most Arabs, then we should say that Saint Maroun was a Syriac Saint, as clearly asserted here Maronites, not an Arab Saint, and therefore must use the correct Syriac pronunciation ܡܪܘܢ or Moron (not Maron). So, I believe that it should be Saint Maroun, Maroun, or Moron (with Moron being the most accurate pronunciation based on all the above), with all the others included as redirects of course. Worldedixor (talk) 04:22, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

CONSENSUS FOR REVIEW BY ADMIN: Unless someone theologically influential can present an excellent argument for Maroun, and considering everyone's input, it appears that: 1. Per WP, we cannot add Saint. 2. our hearts is with Maroun with tons of justification for Maroun, and this is what I REALLY wanted. 3. HOWEVER, against what I initially wanted, since Mar Maroun was certainly a Syriac Saint not Lebanese nor Arab, then the Syriac pronunciation ܡܪܘܢ transliterated Moron must be duly used for the article of this wonderful Saint, with all the other pronunciations re-directed, of course.

Therefore, I am happy to compromise and OBJECTIVELY agree with the consensus that the article should be changed to Moron (2 o's) not Maroun. Worldedixor (talk) 23:24, 31 October 2013 (UTC)

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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public holiday in Lebanon

could be mentioned here. Public holidays in Lebanon. --2607:FEA8:FF01:4E54:2522:8EAA:CB4C:6532 (talk) 17:23, 9 February 2022 (UTC)

Anachronism?

@Pbritti Why do you oppose adding exactly where Maron was born in Syria? Whatsupkarren (talk) 18:12, 12 November 2024 (UTC)

Because it's an anachronism that contradicts the norms established in our highest-quality pre-Middle ages biographical articles. ~ Pbritti (talk) 18:42, 12 November 2024 (UTC)