Talk:Marriage à la façon du pays

Proposed deletion

I removed the proposed deletion. This is only a stub article for something that will be much larger. It is part of a course on the history of Western Canada at Trent University that is part of the Wikipedia Education Program in the winter of 2015.Cdummitt (talk) 00:45, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

I expanded it a bit. Notability is established: several scholarly works have been written on the topic by authors from various institutions. I hope I'm not getting in the way of that program now? QVVERTYVS (hm?) 13:11, 13 January 2015 (UTC)

Elaboration on Information

This article is good as a stub article, however, readers would find it more helpful once the events are thoroughly explained; for example, explaining what caused the HBC to overturn their ban on women in the factories.--miguelmabilangan (talk) 17:44, 26 January 2015 (UTC)

Elaboration on information

This is a very important part of the fur trade history. At first encounter the Europeans were very much dependent on first nation members helping them survive. Marriage 'a las facon du pays' was one of the ways the Europeans maintained good relations and gained favour with a specific group. This practice was more common among french settlers and traders so i would look at those type of sources first. As the years move forward, and the Europeans establish themselves better, the marriage was mostly seen as a way to establish better favour and trade routes. They would often forget about them once their use had run out. APRenaud (talk) 17:09, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Elaboration on information.

First of all, I would like to praise the hyperlink use or the word factories. The early introduction of this new terminology will be beneficial when the stub becomes longer. In planning for the longer article, it would be beneficial to elaborate on the statement that Marriage 'á la façon du pays' was the basis of the fur trade. One question to ask might be "In which ways did these women help their husbands in the fur trade?" Additionally, the statement about marriage rituals acts as a starting point to begin elaboration on the rituals involved in the union of the men and women. Further, the day to day life after their initial union might be explored. Lastly, the official reasons for the Hudson Bay Company's retraction of their factory ban involving women (as introduced in paragraph to of this stub) could be elaborated on once the article begins expansion. Thank you for creating the foundation or this Wikipedia article. --Caitlinmcgrath (talk) 17:17, 3 February 2015 (UTC)

Useful Source

Hey guys, I found this source that could be potentially helpful. It can be found in ebscohost and is titled The Woman Who Married a Beaver: Trade Patterns and Gender Roles in the Ojibwa Fur Trade and was written by Bruce M. White in 1999. I typed in the three words marriage, trade and fur. Good luck, --Caitlinmcgrath (talk) 19:22, 9 February 2015 (UTC)

Proposal and bibliography

In order to improve this article we propose the addition of four sections; origin, purpose, decline and Métis. Through these four sections we will explore not only what the meaning of this relationship was in western Canada, but also how different scholars have come to understand the importance of these relationships. Furthermore, we wish to use this article to explore, to the best of our abilities, how the people involved viewed these relationships. We recognize the challenge in doing this do to a lack of primary sources from aboriginal women, but we will use scholars like Sylvia Van Kirk who have attempted to explore what these women felt though the available sources. Overall, we aim to improve this article through the use of multiple sources, which will hopefully allow us to highlight what these relationships meant to different people.

Origin:

Firstly, we will explore the origin of the term marriage ‘á la façon du pays’ by highlighting what it meant and who was involved in it. For instance, the best English translation is marriage according to the custom of the country, which refers to a type of common law marriage. Additionally, we will highlight how these relationships where formed between aboriginal women and fur traders for economic and social reasons. Overall, the origin of this term will help us provide a general context for this article that will help introduce the reader into the topic.

Purpose:

The purpose of a marriage “à la façon du pays” was, ultimately, to provide the European husband with an advantage over his competitor in the fur trade business. This was obtained through his Indigenous wife, who acted as a middleman between her people and the European fur traders. These marriages were frequently mutually beneficial, with the Indigenous woman’s social status and lifestyle being improved as a result of her valuable ability to mediate between the two cultures. There is a debate, however, as to the extent of Indigenous women’s influence over the fur trade. While some scholars, such as Sylvia Van Kirk, state that Indigenous women benefitted from the marriages “à la façon du pays”, others such as Richard White are doubtful about the limited role that Indigenous women may have played in the fur trade.

Decline:

Marriages between fur traders and Indigenous women declined after the turn of the nineteenth century. This was partially caused by an influx of European and mixed-race (Metis) women in Canada and the West, who were deemed more desirable wives by the traders. The increase in the number of traders and expansion into the West also made intermarriage less politically and economically necessary on both sides. Growing missionary presence also condemned marriage by ‘Indian rules.’ Van Kirk has argued as well that prolonged exposure to European men brewed animosity amongst the Indigenous women and communities, which discouraged women from forming partnerships. The North West Company eventually banned the practice of intermarriage for some employees in 1806, and marriages à la façon du pays would continue to decrease over the following decades.

Metis:

In a discussion of the Metis people we will aim to discuss their roots, which is intricately tied with marriage ‘á la façon du pays’ as well as the role and impact, which they played upon the entire Fur Trade throughout Canada. We shall look at articles by Susan Sleper-Smith, Brenda McDougall and Patrick C. Douaud and their ethnographic studies of the Metis people as a whole.

The Metis people were derived from these initial relationships between Aboriginal women and French men who had moved to the West. The Metis communities that developed in areas such as Red River and the Great Lakes are based upon the connections between Aboriginal women and French men as they grew fur trade posts throughout the West. Mainly the Aboriginal women who were chosen to be the mothers to the Metis community were from the Cree and Ojibwa tribes. It was the Metis communities that became one of the most influential ties between the Aboriginal peoples and the Europeans. It is discussed by McDougall that the Metis people were not only influential to the running of the fur trade but that they were one of the major determining factors in the way in which the fur trade came to be.

Bibliography

Brown, Jennifer SH. Strangers in Blood: Fur Trade Company Families in Indian Country. UBC Press, 1980.

Douaud, Patrick. "Canadian Metis Identity: A Pattern of Evolution." Anthropos 78, no. 1 (1983): 71-88.

Fitzgerald, Sharron A. “Hybrid Identities in Canada’s Red River Colony.” The Canadian Geographer 51, no. 2 (2007): 186-201.

Friesen, Gerald. The Canadian Prairies: A History. University of Toronto Press, 1987.

Jackson, John C. Children of the fur trade: Forgotten Metis of the Pacific Northwest. Oregon State University, 2007.

McDougall, Brenda. "'The Comforts of Married Life': Metis Family Life, Labour, and the Hudson's Bay Company." Labour / Le Travail 61 (2008): 9-39.

Peterson, Jacqueline. "Prelude to Red River: A Social Portrait of the Great Lakes Metis." The American Society of Ethnohistory 25, no. 1 (1978): 41-67.

Sleeper-Smith, S. "Women, Kin, And Catholicism: New Perspectives On The Fur Trade."Ethnohistory, 2000, 423-52.

Van Kirk, Sylvia. Many Tender Ties: Women in Fur-Trade Society, 1670-1870. University of Oklahoma Press, 1983.

Van Kirk, Sylvia. "“Women in Between”: Indian Women in Fur Trade Society in Western Canada." Historical Papers/Communications historiques 12, no. 1 (1977): 30-46.

White, Bruce M. "The Woman Who Married a Beaver: Trade Patterns and Gender Roles in the Ojibwa Fur Trade". Ethnohistory 46, no. 1(1999): 130–138.

Wright, Mary C. “Economic Development and Native American Women in the Early 19th Century” American Quarterly 33, no. 5 (1981): 525-536.

HillaryViolet (talk) 16:47, 24 February 2015 (UTC)

References

Addition of fur trade section

Hello editors, i have added a small section of the fur trade to set up so context to the page. I will be making for changes to it in the next few weeks. HillaryViolet (talk) 16:15, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Tips for going forward

I will try and provide some input into how to improve this and what i believe would be helpful for your team to explore.

First off, your outline and sources look amazing, i know this page didn't have much to start with and it is a difficult topic so well done. I will use this as my guide for what their is to come and make comments upon it.

I really like your titles, nice structure, the only thing i would say is that it should be the 'Rise of the Metis' as a title or something along those lines. This way its more focused upon the idea that this is the roots of this group and not a full talk about the metis people. I have noticed that you have added a section titled 'The Fur Trade,' and while the information in there is good its confusing. It would make more sense as a sub title under purpose.

I have no comments really on what you plan to add in each section. Sounds like you all have a clear direction as to where the page is going. Perhaps under purpose though you could have a sub title called 'varying views' or something where you can dive into how the historical community is divided on the subject. i feel like implementing this into the writing where you actually talk about the purpose would take away from what your trying to tell your audience.

Your sources are great, i can't remember what is considered to be older sources, but still credible, and perhaps a quote from a primary source could be beneficial. This link has some sources at the bottom of correspondences and journals if you choose to add primary. http://www.northwestjournal.ca/XIII2.htm

Since your article is still in working progress i have nothing further to add. One suggestion is to site less, you have a few lines that are all from one source same page, one at the end i believe is enough.

Good Luck, have fun, hopefully this is useful and if it sounded mean it wasn't my intent. Any further questions just send me a message on my talk page. APRenaud (talk) 18:29, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

Peer Review: Potential Article Improvements

I think this article has been greatly improved and expanded upon by the group. I especially like the introduction to the topic because it provides a good explanation and is enticing for readers to want to read the rest of the article. I think the introduction also has a lot of links to other wikipedia articles embedded within and that is definitely a positive because it allows readers to learn about other related topics.

One suggestion I have would be to add more information on women's role as a middleman. It would be helpful to include what they actually did and the roles they performed. Currently the article just says their role was to be middlemen so it could be elaborated on, providing you can find the sources that explain it.

I think the decline section is important and well written. I think the reasons given in that section could be more explained, multiple reasons are briefly stated but no detail is provided about them.

My final suggestion would be to provide more information in the legacy section. I know the Metis Wikipedia page, which you link to, is very detailed but I think more information could be included on this page. You could explain how the marriages influenced the culture of the Metis group.

Overall I think the article is definitely shaping up to be a good article with a lot of useful information about this type of marriage and why it occurred. Toriferr (talk) 22:44, 23 March 2015 (UTC)

I think that so far this article is really well put together, and I think the sections are all good and related to the topic as well. I do find that the Fur Trade section is a little confusing in terms of wording at some points... one such place is in the second paragraph when you are discussing the roles of women in the fur trade. What you have in the sentence makes sense but I think it could be worded in a more concise way. Looking forward to reading the final product!

Lbaronikian (talk) 00:42, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Peer Review

I think this article is great! Your group has done a fantastic job seeing as there was essentially nothing to begin with. The sections are really well put together and everything flows really well. I know you discuss some of the significances a little bit in each section, but I think you could add a significance section and tie everything together. The overall significance of this marriage and how this shaped Canadian History. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Shann.dillon (talk • contribs) 11:47, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Peer Review

Overall your article is well structured and supported well by your citations and references, however within your article there a couple subtle changes that could be altered. In your article you have scattered citations ("According to Susan Sleeper-Smith in her article Women, Kin and Catholicism: New Perspectives On The Fur Trade") that is not necessary to prove your point. I dont think its necessary to do this at all and introduce authors and sources in your article as you go along. rather, you might want to simply edit these sections to not include the framework of the author, and just extrapolate what they are saying. Another minor detail concerning the layout/aesthetics of your article, would be the possible inclusion of an image that reflects marriage a la facon du pays. There are several contemporary paintings that might be able to fit well with your article. Other than that your article looks very substantial and well supported. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Mlocksley (talk • contribs) 15:45, 24 March 2015 (UTC)

Reader questions

Section 'Origin and purpose'

The sentence It was understood that both parties could leave the marriage if they were dissatisfied or no longer interested in the union. made me stop. As written, it seems to assert that both parties needed to agree on the cause of a dissolution. Was the intended meaning that either party could leave on simple dissatisfaction? Also, the text could leave seems to suggest that some sort of permission was involved. If so, did this take the form of a cultural sanctioning process, or that it was simply (or perhaps typically or informally) understood between husband and wife? Was a ritual involved, or cultural expectations such as formally returning the wife to her people, or could one or the other simply walk away? Did this have an impact on contractual obligation, or expectations of responsibility or mutual support? It also seemed like it might be beneficial to break the passage Unlike European marriages...North American wives out of the paragraph into a separate paragraph perhaps at the end of the section. The original paragraph seems to describe initiation of marriage and economic role in a gifting culture, with the ephemeral qualities of the marriage in the middle. Finally, in the article overall, I feel that this is a rich topic that is reduced to a set of limited economic considerations: European men seeking advantage over other European men. Did some of them love their wives? Did trappers just naturally grow close to people in a nearby indigenous community? Did a local community value a trapper in some way as an emissary or cultural ambassador from outside their world? Mvsmith (talk) 21:17, 5 November 2017 (UTC)

Copper or iron pots?

In the section about the benefits women and their families received, there is mention of "copper pots" replacing "clay" , however, I am certain that the precontact tribes did have copper pots. Was this intended to say "iron pots"? Those were, in fact, introduced to Native peoples by Europeans, since the Native peoples had not discovered how to melt and form iron yet. (also, iron replaced copper in the construction of knives and many other tools). In the interest of accuracy this should be checked and if it is indeed an error changed... 2001:56A:FB24:F900:B542:78F8:50C2:7047 (talk) 06:01, 24 August 2022 (UTC)

Sorry that was not intended to be a reply to the above question but its own question. 2001:56A:FB24:F900:B542:78F8:50C2:7047 (talk) 06:02, 24 August 2022 (UTC)