Talk:Masanao of Kyoto

Requested move 19 July 2022

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Moved to Masanao of Kyoto. To naturally and concisely disambiguate from other sculptors named Masanao that were discovered later in the RM. (closed by non-admin page mover) — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 01:01, 11 August 2022 (UTC)

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Masanao (Kyoto) → Masanao (Kyoto sculptor) – Align naming format for persons. Gryffindor (talk) 17:35, 19 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 18:00, 26 July 2022 (UTC) — Relisting. — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:42, 2 August 2022 (UTC)

• I'd think Masanao (sculptor) would be the preferred choice here since that was the person's notable profession and since the disambiguator doesn't seem to be ambiguous with any of the other entries at Masanao. However, I'm not sure why CambridgeBayWeather did the opposite move two years ago; maybe they know something I don't or am not seeing? Steel1943 (talk) 03:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

  Hi there,

  I am the author of the Masanao page. Just to let you know that the conventional way that this artist is mentioned is as follows:

  ‘Masanao of Kyoto’

  This is because we do not know his actual name (‘Masanao’ was likely the artist name rather than birth name), and because there was another artist by the same name in another part of Japan, so this is an important disambiguation.

  Unfortunately, when I created this article, issues were raised with this standard (as used for a hundred years of relevant art history) nomenclature, and I was forced to change it to ‘Masanao (Kyoto)’.

  Just some context for you! Siowtuze (talk) 16:30, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

I'm not sure. I moved it from Masanao of Kyoto (sculptor) to Masanao (sculptor) and then some time later moved it again, Masanao (sculptor) to Masanao (Kyoto). I wondered if someone had asked me to move it but I don't see anything on Siowtuze or my talk pages. They may have sent me an email but that would be at home on my desktop and not on this laptop. However, please don't rule out stupidity on my part. CambridgeBayWeather, Uqaqtuq (talk), Huliva 06:08, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

In the article it says there is another Masanao who was also a Netsuke sculptor. So therefore this person disambiguation naming format is proposed. The current one looks like it's a place in Kyoto. Gryffindor (talk) 09:11, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Does the subject which you refer have an article on Wikipedia, or a redirect to a section that specifically identifies the subject? If not, the initially proposed title could be seen as unnecessary disambiguation due to not having an existing subject to disambiguate against. Steel1943 (talk) 13:46, 20 July 2022 (UTC)

Yes - so - this article *should* be titled: 'Masanao of Kyoto'. This is what I originally titled it, before people here pushed for it to be changed, following some Wikipedia convention. Just to be absolutely clear: The correct title of this article was not arbitrary; it should be 'Masanao of Kyoto' because that is precisely how this artist has been known in the West for over 150 years. It is, effectively, the artist's name. I agree with you that, although 'Masanao (Kyoto)' works to communicate the same thing, it does look a bit like it's a place in Kyoto. Siowtuze (talk) 22:54, 23 July 2022 (UTC)

• Support helpful to readers. In ictu oculi (talk) 15:56, 20 July 2022 (UTC)
• Support per nom. -- Necrothesp (talk) 12:37, 27 July 2022 (UTC)
• Use Masanao (sculptor). Nom is correct that we don't just disambiguate people by place name. But we don't include placenames at all for bio articles except as secondary disambiguation; we disambiguate first by most notable occupation.  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  09:24, 1 August 2022 (UTC)
• Relist comment "(sculptor)" or "(Kyoto sculptor)"? — Ceso femmuin mbolgaig mbung, mellohi! (投稿) 20:43, 2 August 2022 (UTC)
• Use Masanao of Kyoto We're used to seeing parentheses as the most common kind of disambiguation for people, so the discussion has been stuck revolving around that, but guideline WP:NCDAB also offers two other methods in the form of natural disambiguation and comma-separated disambiguation. It states: Natural disambiguation that is unambiguous, commonly used, and clear is generally preferable to parenthetical disambiguation. As article author Siowtuze has been trying to explain, but no one seems to have cared, "Masanao of Kyoto" is the established nomenclature used to distinguish between this subject and other netsuke sculptor "Masanao of Ise". Examples of museums and auctioneers employing this usage: [1][2][3][4][5][6]. We can also invoke WP:COMMONNAME policy here, which would carry more weight than disambiguation guidelines. (For the sake of completeness: usage of "Masanao, Kyoto" can be found, but it is unclear if that is intended as a disambiguation, or in the format <Artist>, <Place produced> in reference to a particular piece of artwork. Also, comma disambiguation is generally used for geographic names, so natural disambiguation is still preferred to avoid any misunderstanding.) — 2406:3003:2077:1E60:C998:20C6:8CCF:5730 (talk) 16:39, 3 August 2022 (UTC)
• Move to Masanao of Kyoto. As demonstrated by 2406:3003 above, "Masanao of Kyoto" is both natural disambiguation as well as the usual way of distinguishing the two netsuke sculptors, per WP:NCPDAB. Secondary preference for the move as originally proposed. ModernDayTrilobite (talk • contribs) 19:47, 3 August 2022 (UTC)

  Happy to see this. Siowtuze (talk) 18:16, 6 August 2022 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.