Talk:Symphony: Mathis der Maler
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Most popular?
editCan we really state that this is his most popular work? Wouldn't the Symphonic Metamorphosis be considered so, since it is played and recorded more often? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.32.177.143 (talk) 16:35, 25 February 2009 (UTC)
I fixed that. I also fixed a little bit of the writing. Now, obviously, this article is way too short, but even as short as it is it still needs more references. Gingermint (talk) 21:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
Wish List
editA technical analysis of the work with lots of musical examples.
A few words about Hindemith's theory of harmony.
A little more about the reception and the political stuff around it.
More references. Gingermint (talk) 21:06, 13 October 2009 (UTC)
- Good points, thanks! --Jubilee♫clipman 03:55, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
Dab?
editWhy is this dabbed "...(symphony)" and the opera undabbed? The symphony is clearly the primary target. It clearly should be "Mathis der Maler" for the symphony and "Mathis der Maler (opera)" for the opera. --Jubilee♫clipman 19:31, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
Move?
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the move request was move page to Symphony: Mathis der Maler and change undabbed page to point there. Jubilee♫clipman 13:45, 2 December 2009 (UTC)
Mathis der Maler (symphony) → Mathis der Maler —
- Symphony is clearly the primary target. I moved the (rarely performed) opera back to "Mathis der Maler (opera)" but the undabbed page now has a history. The dab leads will need to be updated too. Jubilee♫clipman 19:37, 23 November 2009 (UTC)
- This is not a "clearly" uncontroversial move and there is a reasonable possibility it could be opposed. I am not familiar with either the symphony or the opera but the articles themselves lead me to believe the opera is the primary target. The opera is a full-fledged article with seven inline citations from six sources while the symphony is a stub article with two references in a reference section that do not directly source any information. Aspects (talk) 07:00, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- Quote from opera's article (my emphases): "In contrast to the popular Mathis der Maler symphony, the opera itself is now only occasionally staged" - I for one had never heard of the opera; the symphony is frequently performed and recorded. The symphony's article really needs to be expanded and properly sourced. If we can't agree on the proposed move, perhaps the Mathis der Maler article should be a dab page pointing to both opera and symphony? (Read Talk:Mathis der Maler (opera) as well). --Jubilee♫clipman 15:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- Or they could be merged; we don't actually say very much about the symphony. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:30, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- Not a bad idea, actually, since they are closely related works. Merge both to the undabbed name. --Jubilee♫clipman 15:35, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- Or they could be merged; we don't actually say very much about the symphony. Septentrionalis PMAnderson 15:30, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- Quote from opera's article (my emphases): "In contrast to the popular Mathis der Maler symphony, the opera itself is now only occasionally staged" - I for one had never heard of the opera; the symphony is frequently performed and recorded. The symphony's article really needs to be expanded and properly sourced. If we can't agree on the proposed move, perhaps the Mathis der Maler article should be a dab page pointing to both opera and symphony? (Read Talk:Mathis der Maler (opera) as well). --Jubilee♫clipman 15:07, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
Oppose merge of opera and symphony. Both are important and have perfectly viable articles, written and structured in different ways. I don't think a disambig page is needed either (unless there are other references). A hat note on each work linking to the other one would be sufficient. Moving Mathis der Maler (symphony) to Mathis der Maler is fine of course. --Kleinzach 22:52, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- OK. We're back to my original proposal then: move this page. I can't see how this is controversial except from a cursory glance at the two pages by someone who knows nothing about either work. --Jubilee♫clipman 23:59, 24 November 2009 (UTC)
- What is the real name of the work? I ask because I've just noticed that the lead says Symphony: Mathis der Maler. If so, that might be our solution. --Kleinzach 01:19, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Symphony: Mathis der Maler, I believe. However, it is invariably called just Mathis der Maler or perhaps The Mathis der Maler Symphony. We need to help our reader find it quickly by using the most typical name used by sources rather than the real name which may never actually be used except inside a concert programme or in a pedantic academic discussion. --Jubilee♫clipman 01:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we have redirects. In the case of names with accents, e.g. La bohème, the article bears the correct name, while their are redirects from versions that the reader may be more likely to search for, e.g. La Boheme. (This policy doesn't extend to sub-titles, but in this case there isn't one.) --Kleinzach 06:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- Fair point. But the undabbed Mathis der Maler still points to the rarely performed opera. Where should it actually point? I suggest it should point to the well-known symphony (what ever title we give its article), which dabs the opera in the header anyway. (The opera is almost forgotten except in the context of the symphony, and even then programme writers often fail to mention it.) --Jubilee♫clipman 01:09, 27 November 2009 (UTC) PS, do you think anyone would notice if I simply changed the redirect? :P --Jubilee♫clipman 01:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- Maybe not. Any objection to renaming the symphony as Symphony: Mathis der Maler? (For the record: the reason the symphony is performed more than the opera is money. Comparing the two is a bit like saying cabbage is more popular than artichoke — it is, but which would you prefer?) --Kleinzach 03:09, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- Fair point. But the undabbed Mathis der Maler still points to the rarely performed opera. Where should it actually point? I suggest it should point to the well-known symphony (what ever title we give its article), which dabs the opera in the header anyway. (The opera is almost forgotten except in the context of the symphony, and even then programme writers often fail to mention it.) --Jubilee♫clipman 01:09, 27 November 2009 (UTC) PS, do you think anyone would notice if I simply changed the redirect? :P --Jubilee♫clipman 01:13, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- Well, we have redirects. In the case of names with accents, e.g. La bohème, the article bears the correct name, while their are redirects from versions that the reader may be more likely to search for, e.g. La Boheme. (This policy doesn't extend to sub-titles, but in this case there isn't one.) --Kleinzach 06:47, 26 November 2009 (UTC)
- Symphony: Mathis der Maler, I believe. However, it is invariably called just Mathis der Maler or perhaps The Mathis der Maler Symphony. We need to help our reader find it quickly by using the most typical name used by sources rather than the real name which may never actually be used except inside a concert programme or in a pedantic academic discussion. --Jubilee♫clipman 01:29, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
- What is the real name of the work? I ask because I've just noticed that the lead says Symphony: Mathis der Maler. If so, that might be our solution. --Kleinzach 01:19, 25 November 2009 (UTC)
(outdent)Symphony: Mathis der Maler with undabbed pointing there. (Surely the reason the opera is rarely performed is lack of interest? Wagner and Verdi operas are huge but are performed frequently. BTW I'd prefer cabbage as I hate artichoke... I actually don't care for opera much either: symphonies, for me, every time!) --Jubilee♫clipman 03:50, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- PS: the symphony has already been named! ;O) --Jubilee♫clipman 03:58, 27 November 2009 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Thematic Analysis section
editThe 'Thematic Analysis' section contains no analysis. However I do think the content adds to the article. It just needs to be renamed. Suggestions? I'm at a loss. Dlabtot (talk) 03:41, 26 April 2017 (UTC)
Good as far as it goes, just add words to explain the notes. G41rn8 (talk) 20:03, 27 December 2017 (UTC)
Last "act" ?
edit"Orchestral interlude from the last act" There are no "acts" in the opera. It consists of 7 scenes, with no acts. 185.39.140.162 (talk) 14:19, 19 January 2023 (UTC)