Talk:Mayonnaise/Archive 1

Archive 1

Unsourced history

There is some rather remarkable history here to have no attribution of sources. -- Jmabel 22:35, 5 Jan 2004 (UTC)

Over half a year since I asked, and still no references cited. -- Jmabel 02:08, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

Which is the fact that requires more referencing? The rest is deductions of logic, as most history is. recently I added the following opening sentence to the entry Excalibur (movie): "Excalibur is a 1981 film directed by John Boorman, which was a creative innovation in remaking the legend of King Arthur, a gritty and violent anti-Camelot that sparked a new Arthurian film-making style that leads in an unbroken sequence to Peter Jackson's Lord of the Rings." Seemed to me like a perceptive, balanced assessment, but you might say, "Where's the proof?" Wetman 02:48, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Look at the first few paragraphs of the section "The origin of sauce Mayonnaise". This is not the sort of thing someone just knew off the top of their head. A charitable assumption is that someone did some research but neglected to cite his/her sources. An uncharitable guess would be that this is either (on the one hand) plagiarized or (on the other) made up. This kind of historical detail should usually be accompanied by a citation. -- Jmabel 05:38, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

The conclusion, inferred from the logic of the quoted references, is mine. I don't know the title of the 1841 cookbook, but I've added an OED reference. You object to a step in the logic? or to one of the facts? Which is the suggestion that needs to be expanded? Notice the use of the expression "it may appear more credible" Apparently it doesn't appear more credible to a connoisseur of culinary history such as User:Jmable. Tant pis. Wetman 05:51, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

The OED reference helps a lot. Up till that addition, there was no clue where someone would go to verify this. -- Jmabel 16:04, Aug 25, 2004 (UTC)

Got a better reference! The suggestion about the duc de Mayenne was first made by culinary writer Pierre Lacam, but whether in Mémorial historique et géographie de la patisserie (privatetly printed, Paris 1908), Nouveau patissier glacier français et étranger (1865) or Glacier classique et artistique en france et en italie, (1893) I can't tell. My bet's on the 1893 title. A reference is now added to the entry at External link. Wetman 05:39, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Questions on the 01:42, 23 Jan 2005 revision

I liked a lot of the revisions to the English. Some questions:

• Why mention tarragon in the introduction? It is just one of many seasoning that could be added; most mayonnaise recipes that I've seen don't have tarragon.

There was a reference to unspecified "other seasonings." The only seasoning whose presence doesn't change the name of the sauce is tarragon. BtW, finely chopped parsley makes "green mayonnaise:" shouldn't that be mentioned among the variations? --Wetman 16:11, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• On the other hand, why move the reference to mother sauce out of the first paragraph? If mayonnaise is a mother sauce, that is an important fact to highlight prominently right up front.

Yes it is indeed. Suit yourself. --Wetman 16:11, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

• What does "Other seasonings call for other names (see below)" mean?

It means that the addition of other seasonings calls for the application of other names, such as those listed immediately beneath— "Thousand Island dressing" etc. --Wetman 16:11, 23 Jan 2005 (UTC)

Latest revisions

I've been making mayo in various ways about once a month for 35 years now, so that's about 400 times that I've made the stuff. I've done it by hand with a whisk, I've done it in a blender, I've done it in various food processors, I've done it with whole eggs, I've done it with egg yolks only, I've done it with a mixture of the two, I've done it with egg whites only, I've done it with olive oil only, I've done it with various mixes of oils, and I've done it with various seasonings. I've also studied innumerable recipes about different ways of making it and read about the scientific basis of making it. So I feel I'm qualified to write a little about "homemade mayonnaise" at the very least.

If you're going to use a blender you mean "electric blender", which means that it is "homemade", not "handmade." Once you get the yolks blended and you dribble the oil in little by little, there is no way (unless you're making a gallon or so) that it can take more than 1 minute to make the mayo. But for the sake of argument, I'll say two or three minutes, although I don't see how anyone could possibly work that slowly. If you were whisking it by *hand* with a fork, or a whisk, then 5 to 10 minutes is probably accurate.

This is an encyl., in English, not an article in "Gourmet" or "Saveur" magazine. To use "de rigeur" instead of "essential" or "important" is not the correct style. The comment about adding mustard and its subsequent taste being possibly "faute de gout" is even worse. It's possible, I'll admit, to add a sentence such as "Some people feel, however, that the addition of mustard compromises the classic taste."

Why take out the reference to making mayo by food processor? The same sentence already uses a "blender" -- a food processor is just another machine. And I'd wager that far more homemade mayos are made with a food processor than a blender....

I'll readily admit that not everyone makes mayo the same way and that everyone has his/her own feelings about the subject that may be very strong. But we must remember that this is an entry in an encyl., not an essay or an article in a magazine or a term paper. It must be precise, concise, and accurate, and subjective POV must have no part in it.Hayford Peirce 22:15, 12 July 2005 (UTC)

Best Foods vs. Hellmans

According to the company's FAQ, they do not have separate recipes for Best Foods and Hellmans. [1] Can whoever claimed that they're separate give some evidence to back it up? Thanks. — mjb 08:49, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

I'm not sure how corporate products are relevant at all except perhaps one brief reference to the first commercial introduction of mayonnaise. — de Vogon 14:07, 13 march 2006 (CET)

Vet recent edits?

Recent anonymous edits from 193.79.142.194, without previous edits:

• Deleted: "Commercial products typically replace much or all of the egg yolk with water, requiring the addition of lecithin or another emulsifier from sources such as soy (some commercial mayonnaises may thus be appropriate for vegans)." This seems plausible to me.
• Replaced "It is a stable emulsion of vegetable oil dispersed in egg yolk" with "It is a stable emulsion of vegetable oil dispersed in water,with egg yolk as the emulsifier". (Doesn't sound like my mayonnaise.)

--Wetman 11:54, 15 November 2005 (UTC)

Mahon

Another version of the name is that it cames from Mahon (the capital of Menorca, Baleares Islands, Spain). In this version the name is mahonesa, that was corrupted in French to mayonaise.

Recent policing of the article

Tomyumgoong (talk · contribs) has recently been policing the article, removing whatever he disagrees with. That's not wrong in itself, but he needs to be more careful to check his facts. Aside from his removal of any mention of taratr sauce (on the grounds that the recipe wan't quite right) and his declaration that Belgium isn't in northern Europe(!), he's deleted mention of hard-boiled eggs from the Tartar sauce entry with the edit summary: "the dictionary, my cookbook, google and foodtv.com disagree. If you'd like to document your regional variant, please do so on the tartar sauce page". The very first Web-site that Googling gave me included hard-boiled eggs in its main recipe for tartar sauce: [2]. It might not be an ingredient in all recipes, but simply deleting any mention of it was uncalled for. Tomyumgoong, please calm down and slow down. --Mel Etitis (Μελ Ετητης) 08:45, 28 April 2006 (UTC)

Refrigeration???

A friend and I have been having this debate for a while now. She claims that you don't have to refrigerate mayonnaise, even after opening it! I heartily protested, but she went on to explain. She claims that the trick is that if you don't refrigerate the mayonnaise in the first place, then you don't have to refrigerate it ever, but once refrigerated you must always keep it refrigerated. She further claims that her whole family practices this rule regularly, and that it is a "well-known fact in the South." They apparently keep one jar of mayo in the fridge, and another small one which they use specifically for picnics and such.

This smacks to me of Urban Legend! However, though mayo does contain eggs, they are usually pasteurized and the high acidity is also less conducive to spoilage. I did some looking online to see if I could find any references to such a "trick" or any debunking of what I thought might be a common urban legend in the South. I did find a few people claiming that you can get away with not refrigerating commercial mayonnaise if you are very careful to not cross contaminate it (only use very clean utensils, never "double-dip" a utensil, and only open the jar for short periods of time). However, I found no reference at all to this so-called trick. I do know that there are a lot of mayos on the market that aren't "real" mayonnaise, and therefore are probably shelf-stable, but she insists this works with Hellmann’s!

Anyone else heard about this? Any moms from the South? Since I can't seem to spot any direct references to this specific principle, it must either be a very esoteric "secret" of Southern culinary wisdom, or be piece of misinformation which is specific to her locality (New Orleans) or perhaps even just her family/friends! lol. If anyone knows more about this or feels like going into further research (which I do not) please share what you know. Thelastemperor 21:00, 9 September 2006 (UTC)

In an episode of Good Eats, A.B. had this to say:

Now I usually cover my fresh mayo and leave it at room temperature for 4 to 8 hours. [camera does a double-take on the jar] Now take it easy. Take it easy. I know. Leaving raw eggs in this zone sounds like crazy talk. But here's the thing. There's a small, tiny, infinitesimal, little chance that, uh, that egg yolk was contaminated with salmonella. Now the cold of the refrigerator would prevent that salmonella from breeding but it will not actually kill it. Acid, on the hand, will. And with a pH of, wow, 3.6 this is a decidedly acidic environment. But for reasons that still have lab-coaters scratching their heads, acid does its best bug killing at room temperature. So leaving this out for 8, 10, even 12 hours is sound sanitation. After that, straight to the refrigerator for no more than a week.

PrometheusX303 13:38, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

I've been making homemade mayo regularly for 30 years now, generally with 2 egg yolks and 1 whole egg, but sometimes with nothing but 3 egg whites. When I lived in Tahiti, and the air was hot, humid, and, apparently, full of bugs, I could refrigerate and use it for about a week. In San Francisco, up to a month. Now, in Tucson, where the air is generally very dry, I make it and refrigerate it for up to two months. I have a cold, dry refrigerator but I certainly don't freeze the stuff. I myself have never had any problems doing this but I don't know if I'd recommend it to others. I use a fair amount of lemon juice in mine, plus some vinegar, plus, at the very end, a couple of tablespoons of boiling water. Whatever I'm doing, it seems to be right -- I'd hate to throw away some beautiful mayo just because a week had gone by.... Hayford Peirce 18:23, 18 September 2006 (UTC)

Chemistry of mayonnaise is beautifully explained on the How Stuff Works website. It is so detailed and well-presented, someone braver than me should add a strong link to it, maybe under the heading Refrigeration/Safety. Hayford Peirce is right, generally, and the HowStuffWorks article explains how altering ingredients alters the chemistry. Msk49 02:53, 17 October 2006 (UTC)

I question the need for refrigeration as well. My teenage son had been using a jar of mayo out of the cupboard for several months without my knowing it. It had never been refridgerated and he never got sick. I really wonder about this because the jars are not sealed, vacume packed as far as I know and they sit on the shelf at the store for who knows how long.

Mayo should always be cooled stored. If not for the micro stability then for the chemical stability. It will reduce the rate of which rancid off notes are formed. Mayo is rather micro stable but still some lacto bacillus might be able to grow in it. Cooling will slow them down. Commercial produced mayo is produced in clean air environments and very clean filling. Therefore an unopened pot has hardly any change of spoilage. As soon as you open the jar micro organisms can enter and spoil the product. Cooling will greatly prevent it. But yes, in most cases this will not happen. But you better make sure.

Tuna juice

The new para on this topic is silly and typo-ridden; I'd like to see it deleted rather than corrected. Anybody stupid enough to use tuna packed in water as opposed to oil deserves to have white stuff running off his/her elbows. El Ingles 14:28, 24 October 2006 (UTC)

Semen and sperm

I fixed some kids edit saying Mayo could be made with semen, and it contained Sperm, under composition. However I never say the real content, so it's likely off. If any one wants to fix it, that would be great. Can't promise the kid won't be back though. Tsukaggin 19:51, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

The page history can be used to find the edits, and an "undo" edit can be generated for it in lieu of simple reversion if the vandalism was not the most recent edit. —Random832^TC2007/01/22 15:57:46 UTC (10:57 EST)

Yet another explanation of the origin of the word

• My 1961 edition of Larousse Gastronomique (in English) has a lot of stuff about Careme saying that he thinks the word mayonnaise comes from the old term magnonaise, derived from the verb Manier (to stir). Then the text goes on to say:

"However logical Careme's justification for the exclusive use of the term magnonaise may seem, we are not by any means convinced that it should take the place of the usual form, mayonnaise.

Mayonnaise in our view, is a popular corruption of moyeunaise, derived from the very old French word moyeu, which means yolk of egg. For, when all is said, this sauce is nothing but an emulsion of egg yolks and oil."

Wetman's thoughts: The Careme etymology did get discussed in our Mayonnaise entry. Here's a more usual definition of moyeu, from Mallarme.net:

"Partie centrale de la roue où s’emboîtent les rais, et par où passe l’essieu. "Mais de ce que les moyeux des roues de votre carrosse auront pris feu, s’ensuit-il que votre carrosse n’ait pas été fait expressément pour vous porter d’un lieu à un autre?" VOLT. Dict. phil. Causes finales." Meaning: Central part of the wheel, where the spokes are housed, through which the axle passes. (Let me add that before carriages and bicycles, moyeu in fact was a nautical term, coming from Latin modius, a unit of measure for grain. The cylindrical measuring cup gave its name in Roman times to the hole in the thwart in which the ship's mast was stepped.

A 14th-century surgeon, Guy de Chauliac, did use moyeu to mean yolk of the egg: "Oeufs sont tempérez : toutes fois l'aulbin tire à froideur, et le moyeu [le jaune] à la chaleur, avec sédation." (Eggs are tempered, for the yolk tends to "heating" and the white to "cooling," in the Four humours theory. The word moyeu by the way, would have been pronounced quite close to "mayo".) But Moyeunaise seems a bit strained to me. Does it appear very sensible to anybody? The Larousse does serve up some odd gastronomical history, sometimes. The duc de Mayenne may seem an arcane figure to us and to the Larousse foodies, but he could hardly have been more prominent in 16th century France. The only clincher would be to find a reference to mayonnaise/mayennaise before 1756 (Battle of Mahon). Wetman 05:17, 26 Aug 2004 (UTC)

---

I changed Italy with Tuscany in the paragraph about Caterina de'Medici. In northern Italy (with the notable exception of Liguria and southern Piedmont) olive oil was virtually unknown until the 20th century, but in Tuscany (and Caterina was born in Florence) was widespread.

• I have been making mayo at home on a regular basis for nearly 30 years now, using different recipes -- some with all egg yolks, some a mixture of mostly yolk and a little white, and some with all egg whites. They're all good, but the recipe with yolks only, of course, is a little richer in flavor. I have always read that the resulting mayo will only last 3 or 4 days under refrigeration. I have a cold refrigerator, in a dry climate, and I have no trouble at all keeping it at least 3 to 4 weeks. But in these days of health consciousness and rampant litigation, I'm certainly not going to put that info into the main article.Hayford Peirce 17:55, 28 Jun 2004 (UTC)

Good call, for it was the cuisine of Tuscany, not of modern unified Italy, that the Medici queen brought with her. Wetman 02:48, 25 Aug 2004 (UTC)

Bayonne, Bayonnaise, Cajun, cajunnaise, Saone, saonnaise, Guyenne, guyennaise, oy vey, oyveyonnaise....

I removed this paragraph from the etymology section:

  It should be noted that the duc de Mayenne's close ally at
  the head of the Catholic party in France during the Wars of
  Religion, was the Queen Mother, Catherine de' Medici,
  who is generally credited with introducing into Parisian
  cooking olive oil, which was as traditional in the queen's
  native Tuscany as butter and lard were in the
  Ile-de-France. This suggestion, it appears, was first made
  by culinary writer Pierre Lacam.

I can't find a soupçon of relevance in this paragraph to the sauce, its characteristics, its history, or the etymology of its name. I'm also not clear what suggestion Pierre Lacam made. A citation would be helpful. (Anonymous)

The soupçon of relevance needless to say is that mayonnaise is made with olive oil, not a traditional ingredient in 16th century Ile-de-France, where olive trees don't grow as anyone could tell us and where cuisine was based on butter and lard. It's so hard to know just how much needs explaining: at what level does one begin? Is that quite clear now to everyone? May one replace it in the article? Following the recent incursion of a {{Fact}} tag in the text, I have transferred the material about mayennaise here into notes in the article. Does anything more need explaining? --Wetman 20:21, 12 January 2007 (UTC)

The following material has been deleted in its entirety:

Mayonnaise made its English-language debut in a cookbook of 1841, according to the Oxford English Dictionary. Mayonnaise is generally said to have been created by the chef of Louis François Armand du Plessis, duc de Richelieu in 1756, to celebrate the Duke's victory over the British at the port of Mahon (the capital of Minorca in the Balearic Islands). It is supposedly from that port's name that the word mayonnaise is derived. But this often-repeated story seems flawed.

Antoine Careme speculated in 1833 that the name was derived from the French word manier, meaning 'to handle, to feel, to ply,' thus possibly in this case 'to stir or blend'. Careme appears to have been straining to come up with an etymology for sauce 'Mayonnaise' . It is inconceivable that Careme, trained by the greatest patissier in Napoleonic Paris, and chef d'hotel to the duc de Talleyrand, with whom he spent an hour each morning working out the day's menus, at whose table Careme virtually created French haute cuisine, should have been unaware of the fact, if mayonnaise had actually been created as recently as 1756. Indeed, Talleyrand himself grew up under the Ancien regime— (he had already held a bishopric)— was a fastidious connoisseur of the table and moved in much the same circles as the Richelieu family. The origin of 'mayonnaise' must be much older than 1756, if it was obscure to Careme.

In fact it may appear more credible that sauce Mayonnaise was originally named for Charles of Lorraine, Duke of Mayenne (in northwest France), who presided over the meeting of the Estates General in January 1593 that had been summoned for the purpose of choosing a Catholic ruler for France. The sauce may have remained unnamed until after the Battle of Arques in 1589. It may then have been christened “Mayennaise” in 'honor' of Charles de Lorraine, duc de Mayenne, because he took the time to finish his meal of chicken with cold sauce before being defeated in battle by Henri IV.

It should be noted that the duc de Mayenne's close ally at the head of the Catholic party in France during the Wars of Religion, was the Queen Mother, Catherine de' Medici, who is generally credited with introducing into Parisian cooking olive oil, which was as traditional in the queen's native Tuscany as butter and lard were in the Ile-de-France. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Wetman (talk • contribs) 01:19, 9 September 2007 (UTC)

Mayo on hamburgers

i noticed that there isn't any mention of mayo being used on hamburgers

in canada and i'm sure many parts of the US its pretty common for mayo to be used on a hamburger, sometimes even replacing other things such as ketchup, the Wendy's Jr Bacon Cheese Burger is a perfect example consisting of a bun, a hamburger patty, tomato, lettuce, and mayo

anyway was just wondering if someone might want to add hamburgers to the article, i'd do it myself but i dont really know much about editing wiki so would hate to screw up the page —Preceding unsigned comment added by 216.209.148.8 (talk) 11:49, 2 June 2008 (UTC)

EDTA

User:Bob98133 added a paragraph about EDTA in commercial mayonnaise diff. He copied the second sentence exactly from EDTA#Toxicity. The first sentence's "manufacturers claim" is misleading as the FDA has oversight:

What is real mayonnaise? Mayonnaise, as defined by the U.S. Food and Drug Administration's Standard of Identity, must contain at least 65% oil by weight, vinegar, and egg or egg yolks. It may contain spices and natural seasonings except turmeric and saffron, whose yellow color might suggest added egg yolk. Preservatives such as calcium disodium EDTA are acceptable and approved for use in mayonnaise. ([3], purportedly from the Best Foods web site)

2 sentences are WP:UNDUE if due weight is 1 or 0. Copying negative information on EDTA to Mayonnaise is WP:COATRACK.

Special:LinkSearch returns 2 results for the toxicity citation, EDTA and Mayonnaise.

Special:WhatLinksHere/EDTA, first 100 articles, picking those related to food: Food preservation, 7 Up, Mayonnaise, Fresca, Pepsi Blue, I Can't Believe It's Not Butter. Except for Mayonnaise, the articles have only passing mention of EDTA, usually in ingredients lists.

160.83.73.25 (talk) 17:26, 31 October 2008 (UTC)

Vegan substitutes?

I know in the US and elsewhere, there are accepted "definitions" of what is in a food. For example, mayonaise may be required to contain eggs. However, that definition isn't used in the lead to this article, just that mayonaise is "primarily made" with eggs. While vegan mayonaise is sold as a mayonaise substitute, I wonder why it isn't also just considered mayonaise. A similar situation arose in the US about milk where soy milk was not allowed to be called milk. The same still applies to cheese - which must be made with milk - so soy products take on similar sounding names, but Wiki readily refers to these as cheese, not cheese substitutes. Bob98133 (talk) 14:08, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

If it does, it is an error, and should be corrected. Cheese is by definition from milk. Curdled soy is curdled soy.

If vegans have a substitute for mayonnaise, and this is notable, than it should be noted that a substitute for mayonnaise exists. However, mayonnaise is an emulsion from egg yolks and oil, this defines what it is and how the word mayonnaise is understood. Because of the eggs, mayonnaise can never be vegan, and it is improper to call the substitute mayonnaise, the same way the margarine is not butter.CyrilleDunant (talk) 17:48, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

I tend to agree with you, but even though cheese is made from milk, it does not have to be the milk of a mammal. So anything from coconut milk to soy or rice milk could be made into something called cheese. Generally those are qualified as "non-dairy cheeses". My thought is just that these terms have been claimed by the producers, they are not really definitions.Bob98133 (talk) 18:41, 1 November 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, soy milk is not milk, as such. It is called that way because it looks like milk. But from a chemical and biological point of view, milks from mammals and vegetal "milk" are nothing alike (except they tend to both be suspensions). I suspect producers use the terms because "milk" sells better than "white opaque liquid of viscosity higher than water" :)CyrilleDunant (talk) 10:28, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

In my opinion, drinking the mammary secretions of a pregnant ruminant is less appealing than drinking a "white opaque liquid of viscosity higher than water" produced from a bean (although I don't drink either of them). Fortunately, our opinions make no difference in Wiki. :) Various milk marketing boards, at least in the US, have gone to court to protect and limit words like "milk" and "cheese" from meaning anything other than what they sell. Why is the liquid in a coconut called "milk", and the congealed French meat delicacy called "head cheese"? These words were used and existed long before American corporations laid claim to them. My objection is more to the claimed "ownership" of words by corporations than any disagreement with you about whether soy milk is really milk, or whether vegan mayonnaise is "artificial" mayonnaise, or real mayonnaise made without eggs. Bob98133 (talk) 14:34, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Well, I drink of both (as an aside, milk is not always from ruminants) ;) But I do not really follow your argument about corporations. What things should be called in articles should reflect correct terminology, no? This was what I was trying to do, be precise. Because as far as I am concerned, most of the stuff sold as "mayonnaise" doesn't deserve the name anyhow... Just that formally, it is mayonnaise.CyrilleDunant (talk) 15:29, 2 November 2008 (UTC)

Sweet mayo

has anyone heard of making sweet mayo by adding vinegar, salt and pepper to sweetened condensed milk? it's pretty good. --smadge1 (talk) 06:54, 30 November 2008 (UTC)

This used to be the traditional recipe taught in Britain and the Antipodean countries (New Zealand and Australia). I understand it was no longer used in Australia after 1980 and gradually became extinct in NZ by 1995. If you are interesting about the nostalgia contexts in NZ, have a look at these: http://www.radionz.co.nz/popular/recipes/afternoons/shredded_lettuce_salad and http://www.realwomen.co.nz/component/option,com_fireboard/Itemid,60/func,view/id,22049/catid,3/ --JNZ (talk) 10:56, 4 December 2008 (UTC)

Indeed, older Australians and New Zealanders to this very day refer to any salad dressing as "mayonnaise" and are perplexed when it is savoury rather than sweet. Masalai (talk)

Illegal

It is now illegal (in the UK at least) to make mayonnaise in a professional capacity using fresh eggs. If you're making mayonnaise - the eggs must be pasteurised. Is this true of other countries? And should it be mentioned somewhere?--Tuzapicabit (talk) 22:23, 11 June 2008 (UTC)

I don't doubt you but if you want to incorporate this into the article you will need a citation. Zarcadia (talk) 18:01, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

Need cultural notes

Entry needs some information about how Mayonnnaise came to be associated with blandness, white bread, and caucasians. What cultures avoid mayo entirely? --24.249.108.133 18:53, 9 October 2006 (UTC) Racist cultures. Get a grip, racist. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 138.163.106.71 (talk) 23:03, 4 May 2009 (UTC)

Kraft?

As far as I am aware, Kraft "Real Mayonnaise" is among the leading mayonnaise products in the United States, or at least where I have been; shouldn't this be mentioned at least once in the article, or even at least the fact that Kraft makes it? There are parts about Hellmann's and others I've never heard of, I just thought maybe if the article is going to feature these brand names, it might be a bit broader, and feature all or major producers, at least in the US. I was also hoping the section on Europe might be a bit larger, such as facts of distribution and brands as opposed to those in the US.

Thanks!~ —Preceding unsigned comment added by 75.121.79.76 (talk) 03:51, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Disagree. There is no need to mention Kraft. I removed one product mention that did not add to article. Other brand name mentions are due to being the first or having some historical role. Kraft is just a commercial brand and mentioning it would only be for promotional purposes. If there is a reference that it is the most popular brand in the US or something like that, there might be some small point in mentioning it, but unless there is some remarkable reason, the article is better without it. We don't need a list of every brand. Bob98133 (talk) 14:44, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

I think if Kraft is mentioned it should be for Miracle Whip as competition. --Weetoddid (talk) 18:46, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Extra heavy duty mayonnaise

At the cafeteria where I work we get in tubs of mayonnaise marked "Extra heavy duty mayonnaise". It would be interesting to have a section that discusses what that means, if it has any standard meaning (as opposed to just commercial puffery), and if so, what other levels of "duty" there are. SnappingTurtle (talk) 02:28, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd be curious to learn what that means. It sounds like you could use it for axle grease. Maybe not a full section, but a mention w/ref anyhow. Bob98133 (talk) 16:24, 26 March 2009 (UTC)

It is thicker (less water) usually only sold by foodservices. --Weetoddid (talk) 20:22, 31 May 2009 (UTC)

Discussion of colorful anecdote vs. historical data and its place as popular folklore regarding mayonnaise's origins. Mention of Ed McMahon's claim to be a descendent of the inventor of Mayonnaise

While this may not be veracious, as an element of popular folklore it deserves mention, by eliminating reference to him you take it out of popular folklore/urban legend you take it out of that range and put it into a true claim to being descendent of the originator of mayonnaise. Now I suppose you could place it in a popular folklore section, but by leaving it as an assertion of Ed McMahon, it becomes colorful anecdotal material regarding the origins of mayonnaise rather than a possibly false origin statement with no qualifying statement of origin of the claim. Colorful anecdote vs. gospel truth... which would have no bearing on the article except it was stated on national television on one of the most watched shows in the nation at the time, the statement being made by Ed McMahon provides for a richer article and serves to dispel veracity. 71.102.30.217 (talk) 20:03, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

No it doesn't. It makes for a more amateurish, hearsay, I-saw-this-on-TV-so-it-must-belong-in-Wikipedia project. Your last edit doesn't improve the article and should be reverted. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 20:14, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

I must agree with Chris. I'm trying to find sources to back the claim up, and I'm failing anyway. Ignoring all the obituary sources (since they far too often just take from WP without fact checking), I'm currently at [4]. It sounds like a thowaway joke to me. -Verdatum (talk) 20:23, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

What part of 'popular folklore' DON'T you understand... there are whole pages dedicated to 'urban legends' aka 'i heard it while i was drunk'... the claim is an element of culture and it has been placed properly as a popular folklore statement. Your determined efforts to eliminate an element of popular culture regarding the origins of mayonnaise indicate bias. 71.102.30.217 (talk) 20:49, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

What is important is the factual claim. What is not important is that it was told to Johnny Carson. I'm aware that "whole pages dedicated to 'urban legends'" - they embarrass the project and should be confronted whenever possible. The referenceshould be kept and the Carson part discarded. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 21:57, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

(edit conflict) Declaring a statement within a "Popular folklore" section does not release it from Wikipedia policies, namely, Verifiability and No Original Research. I freely admit being biased against statements that are not backed by a cited Reliable Source. However, Wikipedia policy has the same bias. If you like, you are welcome to go to the policy pages and argue alterations to those policies, or you are welcome to find or found another project with policies that suit your personal liking. -Verdatum (talk) 22:02, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

It's not even clear that Ed McMahon was serious when he said this. A joke made once certainly doesn't belong in an encyclopedia. DJ Clayworth (talk) 22:00, 23 June 2009 (UTC)

Hmmm. Re-reading the source, this certainly seems likely. Yeah, removing it might be best. Chris Cunningham (not at work) - talk 09:34, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Done. DJ Clayworth (talk) 13:24, 24 June 2009 (UTC)

Comment

Mayonnaise is an emulsion of primarily oil and AIR - jamusdouglus@yahoo.com - perhaps someone more wiki competent than i would like to do the editing! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.74.227.255 (talk) 00:27, 18 September 2009 (UTC)

Mayonaise being white...

How are most comercial mayonaises white when egg yolks are yellow? Is homemade mayonaise yellow or white?

• Most commercial mayo has very little egg yolk in it. Mayo can also be made with nothing but egg whites. And if you beat egg yolks long enough, they become quite pale, almost white. Finally, most homemade mayo, mine, say, made with 2 yolks and 1 whole egg is fairly pale -- until I put in a little paprika. I've read that commercial mayo uses tumeric to make it a little yellow. Hayford Peirce 01:03, 28 October 2006 (UTC)

• • Home made mayonnaise will most often stay more yellow because they have more yolk compared to the rest of the ingredients. I have also noticed that if you whisk by hand, the final product will be stronger in colour. Maybe it has to do with the fact that hand whisked mayo gets less air in.--Aamunkoi (talk) 17:46, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Like the colour of the shell, the colour of the egg yolk depends on what the hens get to eat. If the birds are kept on a cheap diet, the egg yolk will be very pale. And of course commercial mayonnaise is likely to contain the cheapest eggs... —Preceding unsigned comment added by 129.177.48.113 (talk) 14:46, 12 October 2009 (UTC)

Vegan mayonnaise

I wrote a short description of how vegan mayonnaise can be made at home. It most likely has a lot of grammar errors... --Aamunkoi (talk) 18:17, 15 June 2008 (UTC)

Soo, even though my edit was deleted, I still find it useful to notify that vegan mayo can be made at home, since most people seem to think that it's impossible without eggs. Now the chapter part gives the impression that only way to enjoy vegan mayo is by buying commercial product. --Aamunkoi (talk) 06:23, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

I have added a sentence that vegan mayonnaise can be made at home - and included a link to a recipe that documents this. I think it's reasonable to include in this article since th eproduct is already mentioned.Bob98133 (talk) 13:15, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Someone just deleted this section but I'm sure it will be back. When it does how about calling it a mayonnaise substitute as vegan mayonnaise is impossible. --Weetoddid (talk) 07:58, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I don't really see how it's relevant. It's not mayonnaise and we don't need a Vegan entry on every animal product page. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.68.84.15 (talk) 12:52, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

I think that it adds to the article to mention that there are substitutes for mayonnaise. I don't think that it's particularly important if they are vegan or not, just that similar products exist. In another discussion on this page, Kraft was mentioned and their product Miracle Whip, which might also fit in this category. I agree with Weetoddid that the section should be called Substitutes. If these substitutes were created for a reason, fewer calories, lower cholesterol, better taste, whatever, then including them is relevant; just as including cheese and meat analogs deserves a mention in those articles. Bob98133 (talk) 15:23, 5 June 2009 (UTC)

Seconded - a Substitutes section (vegan, low-fat, etc) would be appropriate. There are also low-cost recipes that substitute modified starch and/or gum for some of the egg whites (not kidding - they're sold in Venezuela as "mayonnaise preparation") arielCo (talk) 21:15, 7 November 2009 (UTC)

Mayonnaise as a hair conditioner?

My mother has for a long time used mayo as a hair conditioner, and this article lacks any mention of such an application for mayo. Just thoght i would mention it

I was actually thinking about using mayonnaise as a conditioner. Does it really work?

yes, especially after a few treatments.

well, Lush has a hair mask which is made from egg yolks, olive oil and vinegar, and those are basic ingredients for mayo. So it's not a crazy idea, after all UseYourDelusion (talk) 17:29, 5 December 2009 (UTC)

Oh, in both Spain and Minorca?

From the introduction to the article (as of 9th December 2009): "...whereas in Spain (and Minorca) it is made using the same ingredients..." That looks wrong, since Minorca is a part of Spain. It's like saying "in the USA (and Texas)", or "in France (and Provence)": it makes no sense to have the part in parentheses, since the whole already includes the part. i.e, "in the USA" includes "in Texas", and "in France" includes "in Provence" -- just as "in Spain" includes "in Minorca".

Could this be the work of some Menorcan editor, (over-)eager to emphasise the island's claim to be the origin of this sauce? Understandable (and looks quite plausible to me), but I'm bound to argue against it anyway: Understandable, but ungrammatical.--CRConrad (talk) 10:30, 9 December 2009 (UTC)

Cleaning eggs

Sayeth the article (in the "Composition" section):

At home, be sure to use the freshest eggs possible, and thoroughly clean them before use.

What does this mean? Cleaning the shells before cracking them would be a waste of time wouldn't it? But then how does one go about cleaning an egg yolk (I'm guessing that using soap and a scrubbing brush would give indifferent results)?. --Camembert

According to my food studys teacher: "Its because the insides of the egg will probably touch the shell before it enters the bowl - if the shell is dirty then the contents of the egg could pick up germs from it" =)

Washing them would not remove bacteria, only surface debris. Eggs are very porous and whatever small particles are on the outside, they are likely on the inside, too. --Sorchah 22:35, 2 December 2007 (UTC)

Eggs come from the single eliminatory orifice of a bird. It is the equivalent of a urethra, a vagina, and an anus. The word cloaca is used for this orifice, and the word cloaca comes from the Latin to mean sewer.

While there is a shell composed in large part of calcium, there is also a membrane that encloses the ovum, ie the egg. While some material may get through the shell, it is another thing for it to get through the membrane. If it gets through the membrane is is in contact with the living mechanisms of the ovum, including its immune system.

garrison (talk) 07:44, 21 February 2010 (UTC)

French pronunciation

I have twice reverted the insertion of the French pronunciation from the lede. Not only does it make the text incorrect "(French pronunciation: /majɔnɛz/[1], sometimes abbreviated to mayo)" - this means that the French abbreviate mayonnaise as mayo? I don't think so. Why is this editor adding only the French pronunciation? This is the English version of wiki. If there is a guide to pronunciation it should be for the English pronunciation. The article says that the French popularized mayonnaise - do they get their pronunciation included for popularization? There is no reason for this to be included. If it is included, than the pronunciation for every language where mayonnaise is used should be included. PS, saying to look something up in the dictionary is not a reference. Please see wiki guide to referencing material. Bob98133 (talk) 12:47, 7 May 2010 (UTC)

Vegenaise article redirects to mayonnaise???

I was searching for "Vegenaise" and was redirected to "mayonnaise". However, there is not a single paragraph about Vegenaise inside the mayonnaise article. This is an error ans should not happen this way.

"Vegenaise" is an egg free mayonnaise alternative. Please add the missing paragraph if possible or start a full Vegenaise article. This is like searching for "soy milk" and being redirected to "(cow) milk" instead, and without any soy milk reference in it.

I cannot eat any eggs due to a serious health condition, and I was grateful for discovering that there are indeed good and high quality alternatives. People who cannot or choose not to eat eggs should at least get a paragraph about "Vegenaise" or "vegan mayonnaise" or "egg free mayonnaise" inside this article. Otherwise Wikipedia is not an encyclopedia, but an advertising campaign for certain lobbyists. I hope this ain't happening.

Thank you ^^Veggieburgerfan (talk) 22:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Just added a small paragraph at the end of article. Veggieburgerfan (talk) 23:12, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Eggs?

The introduction states "Mayonnaise (mayo) is an emulsion of oil, vinegar and lemon juice, often with herbs and spices". I know some mayo substitutes don't have eggs but I think eggs should be included. Real mayo always has eggs in it. Eggs are certainly more common in mayo than herbs and spices. Weetoddid (talk) 20:47, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

The last edit removed the mention of eggs along with making lemon juice not optional. I restored the article to the previous edit, although the lead could use some copyediting. VMS Mosaic (talk) 23:17, 28 June 2010 (UTC)

Emulsion of oil and AIR.

My theory is that it is an emulsion consisting of air in/and oil. The egg(s) is primarily an emulgent/surfactant (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Surfactant.) My evidence: 1 egg will allow at least 750mL of oil to be converted to mayo. The oil ceases to be transparent (white/yellow explained in "Emulsion" - see link) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emulsion). The resulting emulsion does not taste like oil (probably due to oxidation/"rancidation" of the small amount oil at the air/oil interface which is what one's taste buds meet)

The above was determined by personal experience. This theory does explain many of its properties. If anyone can determine the density of the food oil before conversion and then discovers that the resultant mayo is less dense (allowing for the egg's contribution)then this would almost certainly prove my theory! A view through a microscope would also back it. (providing magnification were sufficient - although the air "bubbles" may be sub-microscopic!)

If anyone does the above experiments or knows if the theory is correct, please inform me. Ecstatist (talk) 01:19, 5 August 2010 (UTC) ecstatist

I checked! Density mayo = 910 kg/cubic meter http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_density_of_mayonnaise

Density sunflower oil = 917 kg/cubic meter http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sunflower_oil

As density of egg or food vinegar or water is greater than 910kg/cubic meter, the loss of density must be due to the inclusion of air. —Preceding unsigned comment added by Ecstatist (talk • contribs) 01:48, 5 August 2010 (UTC)

Reference for air/oil emulsion

http://www.freepatentsonline.com/5976587.html

Read PDF 5976587 whose link can be found on the above page

Cooking and food "processing" is a small subset of chemistry! although emulsions tend to be more physics than chemistry. Ecstatist (talk) 02:06, 5 August 2010 (UTC)ecstatist

Recipe issues

There are two recipes, a 'recipe' and a 'traditional recipe'. They are basically identical.

Both recipes contain, buried in them, an assortment of flavourings which are, admittedly, traditional variations of mayonnaise, but would perhaps be better off separated out. Basically, it's mayo when it's got mustard in it, but it's also mayo when it hasn't, as I read this article (I fall firmly in the 'add mustard' camp, but I don't hold my mayo up as the Platonic ideal).

The recipe has no citations at all. Fine, we all know how to make mayo, but still. I could find hundreds on the web, but what's considered a good authority when chefs like to put their mark on simple recipes?

The means of making it has slight and pointless variations too - yes, you could make it with an electric beater or food processor but you might be better off just ignoring that and referring to it as 'is whisked'... Especially when you say it can be made with an electric beater (para 1 line 1) and then neglect to mention how.

Finally, a mortar and pestle is a tool used for making mayonnaise. Are you suggesting I grind the ingredients together? Or are you suggesting that, should I wish to add a spice, I might want to grind it, and are you then suggesting that there is an essential spice that must be added?

Apologies for the challenging tone - I don't know the best way to change the article in light of the questions, but I thought the input might be useful to someone else editing it.--64.103.25.233 (talk) 18:29, 29 November 2010 (UTC)

Regarding emulsifiers

which emusifier would be best suited to replace eggs?

would welcome suggestions. regards ashok

Miracle Whip retains the yolks but replaces the egg whites with food starch and water (and a bit more sugar and salt). Not sure if that's helpful. — mjb 08:46, 8 November 2005 (UTC)

Lecithin is the emulsifier in egg yolks. Try a nonstick cooking spray with lecithin as its main ingredient. Weetoddid (talk) 01:24, 6 July 2010 (UTC)

None! Egg yolk is unique in its emulsifying properties. PGA might help, milk proteins and vegetable proteins also can do the job. But you'll never get the same texture and emulsion stability as with yolk. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.32.215.11 (talk) 11:11, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Australian section is full of POV

"cocktails" is used in a perogative way; "good quality" is used incorrectly; "not available to the average cook" is another howler. The 'everyone makes their own at home' doesn't jibe with me; it's certainly not apart of popular mainstream as witnessed on TV or literature. 203.14.156.193 (talk) 12:39, 14 August 2010 (UTC)

Agree - made changes to remove POV. Bob98133 (talk) 17:04, 16 August 2010 (UTC)

That it's commonly served with fries and potato wedges, and that tartare is normal on fries, is also a strange POV. I've removed that line - none of those combinations are usual in the Australia I lived in for 33 years! SaucyWench (talk) 18:44, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Vinegar, lemon juice

I dispute the assertion in the introductory paragraph that vinegar and lemon juice help the emulsion. On the contrary, these acids thin the emulsion down, and need to be added very judiciously. I'm not a primary editor of this article so I won't change it. Perhaps somebody more authoritative might think about this. El Ingles 23:37, 11 December 2006 (UTC)

I'll look at Harold McGee's book -- he probably has something to say about it. If necessary, I'll do some editing. Hayford Peirce 01:17, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

McGee primarily talks about the egg/oil emulsion. Salt, he says, breaks it down. The other ingredients, he says, thin the emulsion but may help stabilize it, so he is somewhat unclear on this. By and large, I think it's best to remove the phrase saying that all of these other items help the emulsion since I don't think they can be *helping* the emulsion if they are thinning it. Hayford Peirce 18:55, 12 December 2006 (UTC)

I would expect that in limited quantities they would in fact help the emulsion, as both acetic acid and citric acid are organic acids containing both polar areas and nonpolar areas, which ought to help stabilize the oil-water interface. Now whether they would actually help the emulsion when used in the quantities that they traditionally are for flavoring mayonnaise, well, that's a different story. I suppose if I have some time I'll try to imagine an experiment and try it out in the kitchen. D.L. 21:17, 11 January 2007 (UTC)

Acetic acid is NOT amphiphilic, and therefore does not act as a stabiliser. Whilst acetic acid does have a polar carboxyl group, the alkyl (water repelling) part of the molecule is only 1 carbon atom long! That is not sufficient to have any sort of amphiphilic property - if it did, you would be able to squirt vinegar into your washing up bowl and use that instead of Fairy Liquid! Similarly, citric acid would not have amphiphilic properties because it has no alkyl "tail" at all, being a tricarboxylic acid. They are used simply for flavouring purposes. SM (M.Sc Colloid & Surface Chemistry, University of Bristol 1989) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.198.33.252 (talk) 13:21, 28 January 2011 (UTC)

The Anti-Mayo Movement

An anonymous user added a section called "The Anti-Mayo Movement". It ought to be cleaned up a bit, and verified. Josh Thompson 05:47, 24 March 2007 (UTC)

In American culture, mayo is often lumped in with white bread as quintessentially low-brow (and decidedly non-Jewish) food staples. There was even that scene in Hannah and Her Sisters wherein the protagonist Mickey, intent on converting to Catholicism, brings home a crucifix, a loaf of Wonder Bread, and a jar of Hellman's mayonnaise. Someone should weave these pop-cultural aspects into the mayo article (and if no one does, I will). bigfun 17:51, 11 June 2007 (EDT)

"low-brow (and decidedly non-Jewish)"

Oh, the irony. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 70.251.95.98 (talk) 22:17, 15 September 2011 (UTC)

WTF mayo is CATALAN! not French!

In American culture, Mayonnaise is the subject matter of several hate/fear mongering groups that feel the condiment is so offensive, it should be banned. They organize into groups on social networking sites like "Say No 2 Mayo," an MSN group that strongly believes Mayonnaise was invented by the French to cover up the flavor of spoiled flesh, stale vegetables, and rotten fish. The blog, holdthatmayo.com, started my leading anti-mayo activist, Craig Horwitz, gained much attention in 2007, by galvanizing the mayo-haters around the internet with radical articles and apparel, supporting the cause. However, the Founding Father of the anti-mayo movement would be Charles Memminger, an award winning columnist from the Honolulu Star-Bulletin. He is the leader of the worldwide "I Hate Mayo club",which is offline and the first ever organized movement againt the condiment on record. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 208.32.137.69 (talk) 16:07, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

There are similar anti-ketchup, anti-salsa and anti other condiment groups and movements, so this is nothing unique. Please create an article about anti-condiment groups, reference it well, then link to it from this article. Get your facts straight though, and use reliable references. Bob98133 (talk) 16:15, 27 May 2009 (UTC)

File:Mayonnaise Kewpie Japanese.jpg nominated for Speedy Deletion

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Mayonnaise on French fries?

The article says that people in North Europe (Netherlands, Belgium, Germany etc.) use mayonnaise on French fries. The well known opening dialogue in the movie Pulp Fiction corroborates this. However, (at least in the Netherlands) special 'frites sauce' is used more often than mayonnaise. Mayonnaise is about 70-80% fat whereas 'frites sauce' (or 'pommes sauce') is about 20% fat. The taste is very similar between these products.

In Italy freedom fries, err, french fries are used more commonly with mayonnaise or ketchup than with other sauces. --Olpus 07:30, 9 February 2006 (UTC)

In Venezuela, fries are commonly dipped in mayonnaise too.DamianFinol 15:02, 16 May 2006 (UTC)

Montreal, Quebec, too. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 76.10.153.194 (talk) 21:05, 16 October 2008 (UTC)

In Belgium, most people put Mayonnaise on their French fries and not the "frites sauce". Belgians usually use the term "Dutch Mayonnaise" for frites sauce .. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 217.136.104.174 (talk) 18:19, 27 March 2008 (UTC)

Let them use mayonnaise on fries. They probably do this on their respective Wikis about ketchup or vinegar. --Alien joe (talk) 21:30, 20 November 2007 (UTC)

In Europe Mayonnaise is commonly used on chips (fries), I don't know what this 'frites sauce' is but the use of Mayonnaise is commonplace. Zarcadia (talk) 17:59, 1 May 2009 (UTC)

It's true. In the Netherlands they use fritessauce on their fries. It's basically a cheap mayonnaise substitute. it's now so widespread in the Netherlands that when you ask for mayonnaise you'll always get fritessauce. It's a shame! Fritessauce has typical 25% of oil. The water is typical bound by modified starch and gums. The taste is very sweet. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 194.32.215.11 (talk) 11:08, 3 December 2010 (UTC)

Here in Finland it's normal to have mayonnaise on fries too. However I lived in Australia for the first 33 years of my life and mayonnaise is *never* standard with fries there. Ever, ever. If you want that, you'd have to ask, and get the strange looks. Potato wedges are served with Sour Cream, never mayonnaise. Tartare sauce isn't served with chips either - it is served with fish (the fish might come with hot chips, but the sauce is for the fish). Mayonnaise is used for chicken dishes and burgers, potato or pasta salads, and that's about all. Without a reference, the comment that "Mayonnaise is a common accompaniment to French fries and potato wedges, as is tartare sauce which contains mayonnaise." should be gone in relation to Australia. I'm going to remove it and leave a note (perhaps this line has been accidentally orphaned from a different section?). SaucyWench (talk) 18:14, 12 December 2010 (UTC)

Not true for Denmark where the condiment for french fries (known as pommel frites) is ketchup and/or remoulade — Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.83.4.197 (talk) 23:06, 13 February 2012 (UTC)

Mayo gone wrong

Nobody seems to have referred to problems with mayonnaise-making. A successful mayo is, as has been said, an emulsion of oil in water. When it goes syrupy, it is that it has become an emulsion of water in oil. To recover, start a fresh batch and incorporate the gone-wrong one into it drip-by-drip. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.220.46.99 (talk) 13:45, 24 April 2012 (UTC)

Lazy hypertexting.

Quote: "Apart from salads, it is popular with dishes such as okonomiyaki, takoyaki and yakisoba and may also accompany katsu and karaage." Hypertexting does not undo jargon nor the need for clear writing. In general hypertexting interrupts the flow, is often unreasonably time consuming, and often points to more lazy hypertexting,...into infinitude.

This is clear writing with hypertexting: quote: "In the Tōkai region, it is a frequent condiment on hiyashi chūka (cold noodle salad)."
--69.110.90.219 (talk) 03:35, 15 August 2012 (UTC)Doug Bashford

Is mayonnaise an instrument?

A friend of mine said certain mayonnaise containers have "percussion qualities" due to the combination of the container material and the texture of mayonnaise. Is mayonnaise an instrument? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.57.91.142 (talk) 02:14, 1 December 2011 (UTC)

No Patrick, mayonnaise is not an instrument. Horseradish is not an instrument either. 207.207.120.200 (talk) 21:39, 14 May 2013 (UTC)

"Historic has not been demonstrated"

I had to rollback good faith edits by User:Cegpep from late December. Problems with the edits included:

1. Statements like "after much speculation historic has been demonstrated" carry a highly biased point of view
2. The English was very poor grammatically
3. The reference to "aioli bo" in the primary source Art de la Cuina, llibre cuina menorquina del s. XVIII is original research.
4. The "CEG Menorca" reference is not strong enough to overwhelm all debate and declare the issue finally settled. Given the naming similarity, I also wonder whether the editor (Cegpep) may have some personal connection to this site? The account's only two contributions to Wikipedia to date have been in this article, both promoting the "pro-Menorca" theory.

I truly feel that the pro-Menorca camp is adequately represented already in the article, and that these new edits and sources did not enhance it. However, if there is a novel or unique point to be drawn out of them that I am overlooking, I would be happy to discuss it further. (I will admit my comprehension of the cited sources was limited, since they appear to be written in Catalan, which I do not speak.)

--Rnickel (talk) 21:00, 7 January 2014 (UTC)

Olive oil illegal

In the U.S., you can't make mayonnaise with olive oil and label it simply "mayonnaise." This is due to the regulations. 21CFR169.140 http://www.grokfood.com/regulations/169.140.htm So the commercial preparations with olive oil are generally listed as "mayonnaise dressing" and use the term "with olive oil." Apparently, olive oil is not a vegetable oil and therefore doesn't fit the Code of Federal Regulations' definition. This would be an interesting addition to the article. Essentially all commercial mayonnaise uses soybean oil. I like to saw logs! (talk) 08:01, 8 March 2013 (UTC)

It's legalistic hair splitting. All oils from plant (non-animal) sources are considered "vegetable oils", even if the "vegetable" is for some reason classified as a "fruit". Although it might be of footnote interest, it's beyond the scope of the article. — Quicksilver^{T @} 21:18, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Storage

How to store it?

How long does it keep for?

Health dangers if stored incorectly? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 80.218.211.54 (talk) 19:35, 30 January 2012 (UTC)

The article would definitely benefit from a Storage section. The topic has come up several times on this Talk page, but nobody has tackled it yet. Things readers might want to know are:

• Recommended storage temperature range
• Storage life when refrigerated
• Freezing causing separation (de-emulsification) of components in mayonnaise
• Useful life when left at room temperature
• Chemical composition (acidity) being a factor in inhibiting bacterial growth
• Mayonnaise being falsely implicated in food poisoning when contamination came from other sources

There are clearly differences between commercially prepared mayonnaise that is made from pasteurized ingredients, aseptically packaged and sealed in a jar and kept on a store shelf at room temperature for months, versus home-made mayonnaise made from ingredients whose provenance is indeterminate. I'm not up to researching the material at the moment, but these are the general points that should be covered. — Quicksilver^{T @} 21:34, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Blender vs. mixer

I wonder if whoever wrote all the business about using a blender to make mayo, putting in the oil a quarter teaspoon at a time, turning off the blender to look at the surface, etc. etc., and taking 10 minutes to make the mayo, isn't confusing the words "blender" and "mixer"? A blender is a narrow, up and down glass or plastic container with a v. small blade at the bottom and a cover at the top. It was invented (supposedly by Fred Waring) to make cocktails. It will make mayo in about 30 seconds. A mixer is a large motorized contraption that has two whisks that turn inside an open mixing bowl. It is useful for making cake mixes and bread. It could be used to make mayo, I suppose, but it would be slow work. I have known numerous French people, including my own children (who ought to know better), who confuse the two, always using the word "blender" when they mean "mixer...." Hayford Peirce 16:33, 13 July 2005 (UTC)

Hmmm, the thing you described as a 'blender' is more commonly called a 'liquidizer' here...

Commercial production of mayonnaise involves use of a mixer that is more like a blender. You can watch the action in the "How It's Made" Mayonnaise episode on YouTube, The video doesn't go into detail on how the machine works, but there's a brief moment showing the top of the tank in which mixing is performed, and one can see a vortex like one would see in a home blender. The voice-over narration mentions "a couple of minutes of mixing at high agitation". A side shot of the machine shows a vertical electric motor at the bottom of the tank, probably of one or more horsepower capacity, driving an impeller at the bottom, as in a counter-top blender. So, there you have it. — Quicksilver^{T @} 21:57, 4 March 2014 (UTC)

Origin

"The most probable origin of mayonnaise"

Why is the "most probable" origin ?
The word "mayonnaise" is not mentionned in cookbooks before the XIXth century, 2 centuries after the victory of Richelieu.
The origin of the mayonnaise is very doubtful and will remain so in the future. I would say even more, in the future. It's not with our DNA and the Internet that we'll be able to solve a mystery that ancient historians couldn't solve. ;) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.210.14.246 (talk) 21:08, 12 October 2010 (UTC)

If Mayonnaise were french then I am sure that there would be NO doubt, so the origin is from Minorca under the British mandate — Preceding unsigned comment added by 37.14.236.99 (talk) 22:26, 21 September 2014 (UTC)

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mayonnaise-like???

The reference to vegan mayo appears to be based upon the egg industry's ideas rather than the history of the term. Since the original mayonnaise did not include eggs, then there is no reason to append the word "-like" to mayonnaises that do not use eggs. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:188:0:D2:9C59:5752:DB7E:F028 (talk) 00:18, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

@User:2601:188:0:D2:9C59:5752:DB7E:F028: Later in the article, an FDA ruling (that is, a regulatory ruling) is mentioned where mayonnaise was defined as containing egg. In other words, in the US at least, 'mayonnaise' which does not contain egg is by definition not mayonnaise. It's not so much about history than what people know today, and what the laws are today. That's probably why "mayonnaise-like" was used. That said, I think your recent edit stating "egg-free versions of mayonnaise" while keeping the mention of the FDA ruling, strikes the right balance. Definitions like that remind me of the EU Cornish Pasty saga. A Cornish pasty made outside of Cornwall is of course still a Cornish pasty, it just can't be labelled as such when sold. See also the discussion above about cheese and soy milk. --BurritoBazooka (talk) 00:54, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

It's "6 Egg-free alternatives" in the section, the intro uses other wordings which might be there since a long time. The sad reality is, that 99% of the mayonnaise you find out there in the market contain eggs (specially with processed foods), please also look at the picture of standard ingredients. Other articles have a "prepared food" infobox, where for e.g. "main_ingredient" and also "variations" can be listed. --huggi - never stop exploring (talk) 00:59, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

The intro's different wording appeared just today after 2601:188:0:D2:9C59:5752:DB7E:F028's edit. I edited the lower wording to match, while reiterating the FDA rule. Would be nice to know about other countries, especially English-speaking countries (Canada, NZ, Aus, UK, Eire, etc) because of the reader audience. --BurritoBazooka (talk) 01:10, 12 September 2015 (UTC)

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Duff Equation

The equation given can't be right, the expression in brackets will always evaluate to zero (it's a variable subtracted from itself). Stub Mandrel (talk) 09:42, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Fixed. Stu (talk) 14:46, 16 December 2016 (UTC)

Parody of this page

On The Onion: http://clckhl.co/rPFpqSR — Preceding unsigned comment added by 101.174.169.233 (talk) 07:11, 20 April 2017 (UTC)

South America?

I believe the Wikipedia page for Ecuador says mayonnaise originates from Ecuador? I have seen anthropological sources say the indigenous peoples of Ecuador, Bolivia and parts of the Andes used mayonnaise before the Spanish came? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2600:6C56:6C7F:FE39:20E0:39EE:AB53:640 (talk) 10:23, 15 August 2017 (UTC)

Overly technical content

I have moved the following sections here for review and discussion. Yes, they are overly technical and scientific, and it is doubtful many readers will come to this page specifically intending to find this type of information. Simplification or copy-editing, or even the creation of a new page might help resolve the issues here. Thanks. JabberJaw (talk) 01:58, 21 January 2018 (UTC)

Physical and chemical properties

Traditional mayonnaise is a mixture of egg, vinegar, oil and spices (especially mustard). Mayonnaise made in this fashion typically contains 70–80% fat. Despite the high oil content relative to water, mayonnaise is an oil-in-water emulsion. This emulsion is formed by first mixing the eggs, vinegar and mustard and then slowly blending in the oil. This results in an emulsion consisting of a closely packed "foam" of oil droplets. By contrast, if the oil and aqueous phases are mixed all at once the result is a water-in-oil emulsion similar in viscosity to the oil from which it is made. Without an emulsifying agent oil floats on top of water forming separate layers.

Oil may account for 75% or more of the total volume. This means that the oil droplets become distorted from their normal, spherical shape. The close packing of the droplets also allow them to interact very strongly with one another. A combination of these factors gives traditional mayonnaise its high viscosity. The viscoelasticity of mayonnaise made with egg yolk reaches a maximum very quickly after preparation.

Emulsion creation and sustainment

Energy as mechanical force (e.g. shear shaking) must be supplied into the system to force the oil to enter the water phase as oil droplets. Energy is needed for the process because the state of unprotected oil droplets in water is thermodynamically unfavorable (ΔG of the process is positive).

When hydrocarbon molecules (oil) are forced into water layer, hydrogen bond of water molecules and some dispersion forces between hydrocarbon molecules must have been destroyed, and new water-hydrocarbon interaction must have been formed in this state. Considering enthalpy change of the process, the input energy to reach this state and the released energy break even rendering enthalpy change of zero (ΔH_solution = 0) for the process. Enthalpy change equals zero also means that the thermal entropy change ΔS_thermal is also about zero for the process. However, positional entropy change for the process (ΔS_positional) is negative. This is because when oil droplets are in water medium, those water molecules that are in contact with the hydrocarbon molecules lose their freedom of movement. If oil droplets are not in water phase, more water molecules would be more freely to move instead of having restriction on their arrangements. Thus, it is a thermodynamically favorable process for the pure, unprotected oil droplets to move out of water medium as the process is driven forward by entropy. Phase separation of oil and water is not only entropy-driven, but is also driven forward to undo the increase in contact area between oil and water. Forming extra interfacial layer, as when oil droplets are in the water layer, increase the overall energy of the oil-water system. This is because water and oil molecules at the interface are higher in energy compared to when they are in the middle and are surrounded on all directions by their own molecules. Thus, oil droplets would move out of water phase, after letting the mixture sit for a little, to get the change in interfacial area (ΔA) as small as possible in order to minimize the energy rise of the system (ΔG). The relationship between free energy change of a system and its interfacial area is expressed in the equation:

$\Delta G=\gamma \,\Delta A$

where ΔG is the increase in surface free energy, ΔA is the increase in surface area, and γ is the interfacial tension between the two liquids. Emulsifying agent (lecithin) used in mayonnaise are able to suspend oil droplets in water because it lowers the interfacial tension γ between oil and water. When emulsifying agent, lecithin, is added to the oil and water emulsion, they form a layer between the two different liquids, with their hydrophobic tail point toward the non-polar oil droplet, and their hydrophilic end facing the polar water molecules. This reduces the interfacial tension γ because the water molecules are no longer in contact with hydrocarbon molecules. Hence, a large increase of surface area (ΔA) is made possible because energy cost to arrive at the food state is now favorable. Mayonnaise emulsions eventually break as the oil droplets coalesce, although the kinetics and the precise mechanisms by which the droplets coalesce are not fully understood. As samples of mayonnaise age, the size distribution of the oil droplets changed to produce fewer, larger droplets which eventually led to separation of the phases of the mayonnaise. The shift in droplet size could be measured either microscopically (through light or scanning electron micrographs) or by a decrease in the absorbance at 500 nm. When mayonnaise is stored at elevated temperatures, increases in Brownian motion of the droplets, decrease in the viscosity of the continuous phase, and solubilization of the surfactants all contribute to the breakdown of the emulsion. Two unprotected oil droplets with small radii in water are favored thermodynamically to coalesce into one bigger droplet because the process yields a smaller surface area-to-volume ratio. The energetic contribution of the interfacial layer over that same volume of oil is minimized when the two droplets fuse together. Thus, the coalescence process puts the system in a lower energy state and the process would occur spontaneously. However, when the oil droplets are coated with emulsifying agent, electrostatic repulsive force is introduced among the oil droplets which keeps the droplets from coming together. Manufacturers usually try to reduce the oil content of mayonnaise as much as possible within the limits of the food regulations of the country the mayonnaise will be sold in. This is because the oil is usually the most expensive component of mayonnaise. Unfortunately, reducing the proportion of oil in mayonnaise reduces the density of the oil droplets. This means that the interactions between droplets are weakened and the emulsion becomes less stable. In the absence of strong inter-droplet interactions, low-fat emulsions separate under gravity in accordance with the Stokes equation:

$v=2gr^{2}\,{\frac {\rho _{1}-\rho _{2}}{9\eta _{1}}}$

where v is the creaming velocity, g is the acceleration due to gravity, r is the radius of the droplets, and ρ and η are the density and shear viscosity, respectively, of a given phase. The subscripts 1 and 2 refer to the continuous and dispersed phases, respectively. Stability of a medium-to-low-fat emulsion can be increased by reducing the size of the droplets, which also produces a product with a lighter, "creamier" appearance. Another possibility is to increase the viscosity of the continuous phase, and various products including proteins, dextrins and gums are available for this purpose.

Viscoelastic properties

As a semi-solid, mayonnaise has an extremely high viscosity and because of this, its flow properties have been studied extensively. Shear stress is an important term when discussing liquids and solids at any viscosity and is defined as the force per unit area that is required to drag one layer of substance past another layer. Rheology is the study of science that deals with the flow and deformation of matter and is an umbrella for a few of mayonnaise's properties. One of which includes yield stress which can be defined as a minimum shear stress required to initiate flow. So, with all of these terms now defined, one can look at the specific properties that mayonnaise possesses. Mayonnaise has a high shear stress with a typical yield stress around 100 Pascals). For reference, ketchup has a yield stress of about 15 Pascals. With such a high yield stress, mayonnaise is able to resist low forces and even return to its original conformation. A simple equation can be written to explain the relationship between these terms:

$\tau =\tau _{0}+k\gamma ^{n}\,$

where $\tau$ is the shear stress, $\tau _{0}$ is the yield stress, $\gamma$ is the shear rate and $k$ and $n$ are model parameters that influence the shape and curvature of the stress/rate curve. Mayonnaise happens to be a Bingham fluid where k is the plasticity constant and n is 1. This equation is in the form of y = mx + b and thus produces a straight line. In more laymen's terms, the yield stress is the tipping point for conformational change in the mayonnaise after initial force is applied and it is held constant.

Freezing mayonnaise

Mayonnaise is an oil-in-water emulsion which is stable at room temperature because it reaches phase equilibrium. At freezing temperatures, the structures inside mayonnaise undergo crystallization depending on the type of emulsion. Unlike mayonnaise, butter is a water-in-oil emulsion with the water phase having a higher freezing point than oil. When frozen, the small water droplets suspended in the continuous oil phase freeze where they are, while the rest of the oil stays in place. On thawing the butter, it regains its properties as the water droplets melt in their original locations. In oil-in-water emulsions such as mayonnaise, however, the continuous water phase freezes, allowing the oil droplets to flocculate. This process causes a phase separation between the water and the oil. Once ice crystals start to form in the continuous water phase, they begin to inhibit the lecithin and phospholipids from working. These two emulsifying agents lose their functionality due to dehydration: water is crystallizing out, leaving these agents "out to dry." The oil droplets begin to flocculate without the emulsifying agents keeping them separated. At the freezing point of water, this is enough to destabilize the mayonnaise emulsion; at even lower temperatures the fused oil droplets reach their freezing points and fat crystal nucleation begins. These processes make mayonnaise degrade when frozen and thawed; freezing is not a suitable way to store it.

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Bad redirection of Pulmuone Nayonaise to Mayonaise

Hi - Nayonaise, an eggless, vegan product manufactured by Nasoya Foods, redirects to Mayonaise. I don't see how to change it, just how to add and reasons to delete, not the 'how-to' delete, and can't locate the actual redirect text on the page to alter it. A more suitable page redirect would be Nasoya's parent company, Pulmuone. Would someone help? AHampton (talk) 02:42, 8 March 2018 (UTC)

Several new edits on page, but not this one! AHampton (talk) 16:41, 12 March 2018 (UTC)

Dressing or condiment?

I was wondering weather mayo is a dressing or condiment? I know it can be used as both but Im pretty sure its mostly a condiment right?

Answering to above; It is a sauce, a cold sauce.

Hi, I am new and learning in the page, I was trying to fix a clear mistake in the article about Mayonnaise , and for my inexperience it seems there has been some problems. As the wikipedia article clearly says, the sauce has an origin in Mahon,menorca, Spain. NOT France. And even states that there is evidence of the sauce before the french invasion. So the place of origin of the sauce should be Spain, not France by the same article. So..., hope to find an answer, because it is stated in the wikipedia article that is not original from France, this is cultural appropriation. Thanks in foresight.

Mayonnaise sauce originates in France. Until recently, it was thought that the sauce did not exist prior to 1756[5], the year the French invaded the island of Menorca. However, the sauce appears in 19 recipes of a manuscript written in 1750 by Fray Francesc Roger, a valencian friar who published the recipe in the Art de la Cuina, llibre cuina menorquina del s. XVIII (The art of cooking. Book on menorcan cuisine in the 18th century) Francesc Roger calls the sauce "aioli bo",[6] "bo" referring to the fact it had no garlic. Earlier recipes of similar emulsified sauces, usually bearing garlic, appear in a number of Spanish recipe books, dating all the way back to the 14th century Llibre de Sent Soví, where it is called all-i-oli.[7][8] This sauce had clearly spread throughout the Crown of Aragon, for Juan de Altamiras gives a recipe for it in his celebrated 1745 recipe book Nuevo Arte de Cocina ("New Art of Cooking").[9]

Thus, mayonnaise sauce existed in the balearic islands well before the french invasion of Menorca in 1756 — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josefco98 (talk • contribs) 19:40, 20 February 2020 (UTC)

Origin change

Mayonnaise sauce originates in France. Until recently, it was thought that the sauce did not exist prior to 1756[5], the year the French invaded the island of Menorca. However, the sauce appears in 19 recipes of a manuscript written in 1750 by Fray Francesc Roger, a valencian friar who published the recipe in the Art de la Cuina, llibre cuina menorquina del s. XVIII (The art of cooking. Book on menorcan cuisine in the 18th century) Francesc Roger calls the sauce "aioli bo",[6] "bo" referring to the fact it had no garlic. Earlier recipes of similar emulsified sauces, usually bearing garlic, appear in a number of Spanish recipe books, dating all the way back to the 14th century Llibre de Sent Soví, where it is called all-i-oli.[7][8] This sauce had clearly spread throughout the Crown of Aragon, for Juan de Altamiras gives a recipe for it in his celebrated 1745 recipe book Nuevo Arte de Cocina ("New Art of Cooking").[9]

Thus, mayonnaise sauce existed in the balearic islands well before the french invasion of Menorca in 1756.

The article can not say what I posted above and keep the origin in France. Mahon is not France, and if the page claims there is prove to say the sauce is older than the french invasion os the island, it can not be kept as such. So stop keeping contradictions in the same article, and change the origin of the sauce to its real place. Mahón, Menorca, Balearic islands, Spain. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Josefco98 (talk • contribs) 14:34, 21 February 2020 (UTC)

History section lacks neutrality. Origin is unclear and should be presented as such.

It is my opinion that the history section of this article needs to be rewritten. It seems entirely designed to discredit one possible origin for the dish over another, without even presenting clearly what are the different theories. Additionally, the sources that are given are not always relevant, and fail to disprove a French origin to the dish. The assertion 'Theories furthering a French origin of the sauce are largely discredited.' is not sourced, and I think it would have been better to present each theories in a neutral manner. The assertion 'An emulsion making use of abundant quantities of olive oil appears to have an unlikely French origin' is also not sourced and factually wrong, many french dishes from the 18th century were made with olive oil, as half the country traditionally used olive oil in the cuisine. Other sources are pointing toward a French origin, anterior to the conquest of Mahon by Richelieu. François Marin, in a book published in 1742, is describing a sauce that is close to the modern mayonnaise, made with olive oil. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Doster123 (talk • contribs) 14:50, 5 March 2020 (UTC)

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

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Miscellaneous stuff

Does the acid of the vinegar/lemon juice have any particular function in the emulsifying process? AxelBoldt 02:42 Oct 10, 2002 (UTC)

I am fairly certain that mayonnaise (the sauce, not the name) is a Spanish invention. But I'm too new to edit entries yet.

Is not Mayonnaise, but Mahonesa and it is whole egg and oil, nothing else, seasoning with salt. Origin from Mahon, Menorca (Spain). Mahonesa means literally "from Mahon".

Cold? The article says that it's a cold sauce. The widespread availabiloty of room-temperature packets of mayo in sandwich shops shows that "cold" is not a core characteristic of mayo. 174.242.139.199 (talk) 16:47, 27 June 2022 (UTC)

No references to salmonella

One common issue re: mayonnaise is its role in salmonella poisoning. I actually came to wikipedia to look up rules on how long mayonnaise can be out of the refrigerator, and was surprised not to find anything.

Hey-hey! The salmonella section looks awful for 2 more reasons: 1) It uses italic right in the header; 2) it is related to homemade mayo batches only, not mayo in general. 81.89.66.133 (talk) 07:00, 16 August 2022 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 December 2022

“Mayonaise is a thick, cold, and creamy sauce” remove the opinions by shortening it to “Mayonaise is a sauce”. こもれびーさん_{Leave me a message!} 00:53, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

No. These are legitimate objective descriptions. "Luxurious" or "succulent' would constitute "opinions", by which I believe you mean "subjective". "Thick" (as opposed to "thin", like a vinaigrette), "cold" (as opposed to "warm", like bechamel), and "creamy" (as opposed to watery, like chimichurri) are objective and relevant culinary distinctions. Julietdeltalima (talk) 00:58, 25 December 2022 (UTC)

Cold?

"a thick, cold, and creamy sauce or dressing"

Why cold? Just because you store it in a fridge and use it cold for most purposes doesn't mean the substance is inherrently cold. It should be described as usually served and used cold, not as being cold.

When it's room temp, it's still mayo, when it's warm it's still mayo. 2A00:23C7:7983:F501:7545:59EF:E9B5:7AE (talk) 23:20, 27 January 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 24 July 2023

the article states that Menorca was 'occupied by the English at the time', this is incorrect. Menorca was occupied in 1713 by Great Britain. the kingdom of Great Britain comprised England & Wales, and Scotland. this article should be corrected. 2A00:23C4:FAC:4301:BDC4:D5CD:F807:81A1 (talk) 21:53, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

 Done I replaced "English" with "British". M.Bitton (talk) 22:37, 24 July 2023 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 20 September 2023

86.11.29.154 (talk) 18:50, 20 September 2023 (UTC) Dylan gabby invented Mayonnaise in 2013

 Not done: please provide reliable sources that support the change you want to be made. Magic Fizz ^(talk) 18:52, 20 September 2023 (UTC)

Mayonnaise year of origin

It is alleged in the first sentence under the History section that mayonnaise first appeared in 1806, however in subsequent paragraphs, it is revealed that mayonnaise had actually existed in a number of similar variations since the early 18th century - perhaps most notably in 1745 when an infamous cream shortage necessitated the innovative emergency "invention " of mayonnaise. In order to clear up any confusion and prevent further confusion, I strongly suggest that we either cut the 1806 reference altogether or elaborate more on the reason 1806 should be regarded as the birthday of mayo. 2603:6010:E700:1434:2905:C396:42BC:89BF (talk) 18:36, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

The first sentence does not say that mayonnaise appeared first in 1806; it says that the name first appeared then, and goes on to discuss the possible origins of the sauce. Ponsonby100 (talk) 18:43, 1 November 2023 (UTC)

History opening distorts otherwise good section

Most of the History section is suitably tentative about the many theories about the origin of the name of the sauce. But as of this writing, the opening paragraph comes down squarely on the claim that it originated in Mahon - which is far from certain and in fact is treated far more tentatively in the same section. Yes, this paragraph is cited to some published sources which make the same claim, but this is a subject for which one can find all manner of different positions in modern printed sources. No source from the period or just after (late 18th into 19th) supports the "Mahon" version. Ideally, the whole paragraph should be removed; the "Mahon" theory still has its place later in the section. 2600:1700:8D40:9B60:E5A4:6A7B:A9CD:2260 (talk) 08:06, 6 January 2024 (UTC)