Talk:Mazu

The woman's death

For some reason, I remembered Lin Muoniang died because she tried to save her 2 brothers and father from drowning when their boat flipped. And to reply her mother's call on the shore, she opened her mouth, thereby dropping one of her family member she was carrying by the mouth. And somehow she drowned after that. Mmm... it sounds a bit ironic. In any case, in no online references did I find such a thing, none even mentioned how she died, so young! Does anybody know? --Menchi 12:15 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Found how she died when working on the Matsu Islands article. I was wrong about them not relating. Although some of those articles providing her death cause mistaken the Matsu Islands being her origin, her birthplace. --Menchi 19:25 29 Jun 2003 (UTC)

Sources for future article expansion I

• 天后信仰與政治秩序：香港與台灣的比較 (Matsu Worships and Political Order: Hong Kong-Taiwan Comparison) (in Traditional Chinese)

—?

Eh, great, but why is it important or useful? What does it say? — LlywelynII 11:19, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Matsu or Mazu?

Matsu or Mazu? Is pinyin a good idea? --Jiang

I don't think pinyin works here. My understanding is that her name, being non-pinyin, is in the Sun Yat-sen category. Moreover, "Matsu" isn't a personal name. Lastly, Matsu is actually more popular in Taiwan, than in China. Much more so, if you be mathematical and take the density (100 Matsuians/1 km²). --Menchi 20:56 16 Jul 2003 (UTC)

I am moving it back to Matsu. It is more widely used, and a Google test supports it. --HYC 17:53, 11 August 2006 (UTC)

So I have not monitored the flip-flopping between Wale-Giles vs. pinyin for awhile. I am curious what is the current consensus on this issue. My personal view is that it is a bad idea to blindly convert every old English transliteration of Chinese words into pinyin because some of these words have already taken root in the English language. Changing them only create a disconnect from all old literature. There are many examples, the first one comes to mind is Dimsum which entered the English language as Cantonese because most early immigrants to the US were from South China. It would be totally wrong to convert Dimsum into dianxin, the proper pinyin transliteration of the Chinese term (點心) in Mandarin. Doing so not only changed the meaning of the English loan word into a Chinese transliteration, it also wipes clean all the historical immigrant background behind the word. Apparently, this Mazu vs. Matsu debate falls in similar category. I have a bad feeling when I see that people (most likely Chinese mainlanders) came into wikipedia and replaced all existing loan words into phonetic notations (which in my opinion is what pinyin should be) without considering the etymology and history of these words in the English language. To me, it is like converting all English words into IPA notations. I guess this topic has been discussed numerous times before, can someone point me to a link to the conclusion? Kowloonese (talk) 17:48, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

WP:ENGLISH WP:COMMONNAME and WP:MOS-ZH.

Short answer: Wiki defaults to pinyin and mentions it in any Chinese article, but goes with the common English name regardless. Here, pinyin's definitely taken over. — LlywelynII 11:23, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Mazu's festival

The article says:

Her birthday-festival is on 23 March of the lunar calendar.

This is misleading: I'm sure her festival is on the 23rd day of the Fourth lunar month. This year it's on 30 May, in the Gregorian calendar. I'll try and correct the sentence as best I can. --Gareth Hughes 14:08, 18 May 2005 (UTC)

It's the 23rd day of the 3rd month, according to Holidays in Taiwan. So, it should be May 1 in 2005. -- PFHLai 19:03, 2005 May 24 (UTC)

Right. Mr Hughes was just mistaken. — LlywelynII 11:25, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Notoriety?

The article currently states that the Matsu temple in Los Angeles has gained "notoriety." Is that really what is meant? Notoriety is a kind of fame, but for something bad-- if the temple is disliked, perhaps the article should say why.—?

Fixed. — LlywelynII 11:25, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Popular with Vietnamese?

I'm Vietnamese from a region that's very close to the sea and have never heard of her. Can she be "extremely popular" among the Vietnamese people? DHN 07:03, 7 November 2005 (UTC)

Green and red generals

順風耳

千里眼

I've seen Matsu festivals in Taiwan ; Matsu always had a pair of tall military helpers drawing. One of them is red and hears all (順風耳) and the other is green and sees all (千里眼). We should write about them. David.Monniaux 11:26, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

External links

09:29, 4 February 2008 MER-C (Talk | contribs) m (13,709 bytes) (Reverted edits by Radio86 (talk) to last version by Sustainableview) (undo) I find that change inappropriate. Please go through the current links and see what changes I made - all the changes were to bring the english Wikipedia user more informational value. Radio86 (talk) 11:58, 4 February 2008 (UTC)

Taiwanese animated feature

Maybe this could be mentioned somewhere? Esn (talk) 01:58, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Along with other TV shows and movies. Sure. — LlywelynII 11:28, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Official titles

I found this section in the article just plain silly. Some of these Chinese titles were given by the emperor at the time, I don't see how listing the translation of each of these titles would make them official. I can easily come up with 5 different variations in translations to each of these Chinese titles, how meaningful can this list be to the English readers. What I mean is that though the Chinese titles were official, the English translations of them are arbitrary, hence including a list of random translations in this article just does not make any sense at all. Besides, according to the Chinese edition of this topic, this goddess has received no less than 29 official titles from various emperors throughout many dynasties. The list in the English edition is not only incomplete, it is also inaccurate and useless. I would suggest removing the list and just state the fact that she has numerous official titles. And many were designed with the sole purpose to praise and glorify her, for example, a 64 characters official title "護國庇民妙靈昭應宏仁普濟福佑群生諴感咸孚顯神贊順垂慈篤祜安瀾利運澤覃海宇恬波宣惠道流衍慶靖洋錫祉恩周德溥衛漕保泰振武綏疆天后之神" was not intended for practical use. Kowloonese (talk) 18:08, 11 May 2012 (UTC)

I disagree as does our general policy. It might go in a footnote but they should be included and they should be glossed in English. Of course the Chinese forms should be given and sourced as well. Of course it's better (where possible) to have sourced English translations rather than our own editors' shots at it. — LlywelynII 11:31, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Alt names

Ma-Cho Temple gave the names "Dragon Girl" and "Goddess of the Sea" but they need sourcing for inclusion. If they're translations of Chinese titles, they need the Chinese forms and romanizations. — LlywelynII 04:37, 21 November 2016 (UTC)

Sources for article expansion II

These sources are given by the bibliography but currently unused by the article:

• Macdonald, Phil (2007), Taiwan, Washington: National Geographic.
• Pancorbo, Luis (1996), "Tin Hau, la Diosa del Mar", Fiestas del Mundo: Las Máscaras de la Luna, Barcelona: Serbal, pp. 70–72, ISBN 84-7628-168-4. (in Spanish)
• Williams, Samuel Wells (1848), The Middle Kingdom....

Kindly reïnclude them once they are being used as sources to verify statements in the running text.

Even better, these sources are considered authoritative on the topic by Clark and it would be good to find usable online copies or to have page numbers to verify statements in the running text:

• Haar, Barend J. ter (1990), "The Genesis and Spread of Temple Cults in Fukien", Development and Decline in Fukien Province in the 17th and 18th Centuries, Leiden: E.J. Brill.
• Hanson, Valerie (1990), Changing Gods in Medieval China, Princeton: Princeton University Press.
• Ri, Shenchō (1979), Massō Shinkō no Kenkyū, Tokyo: Taizan Bunbutsusha. (in Japanese)
• Watson, James L., "Standardizing the Gods: The Promotion of T'ien-hou ('Empress of Heaven') along the South China Coast, 960–1960", Popular Culture in Late Imperial China, Berkeley: University of California Press, pp. 292–324.
• Xu, Xiaowang (1999), Mazu de Zimin: Mintai Haiyang de Wenhua Yanjiu, Xuelin Chubanshe {{citation}}: Unknown parameter |authormask= ignored (|author-mask= suggested) (help). (in Chinese)

In the case of the Japanese and Chinese sources, however, we should just use them to supplement the English-language sources where possible. — LlywelynII 11:35, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

Revival of the cult in mainland China

The situation of the cult (which when used as a synonym of "culture" or "worship" does not convey negative connotations) of goddess Mazu in mainland China is not as negative as the article seems to suggest. Indeed, Mazuism has energetically revived in the mainland with new temples built in all coastal provinces and all sorts of study conferences and rituals organised with the participation not only of mainland and Taiwanese cultural associations, but also of cadres of the CCP. Not being an "official religion" in China does not mean to be "outlaw" and "banned". Indeed, being an "official religion" in China (of which there are five) means that that given religion is "officially regulated" by a state apparatus. This is not the case of folk or popular religions of deities, which freely flourish without government interference. It is also important to notice that "religion" in China means "doctrine", and "worship", "cults" or "cultures" of deities are not regarded as such, but rather as "living systems" or "ways of life". Indeed, Mazuism is officially recognised at regional level in Fujian (see p. 22), not merely as a "religion" but as a "culture", which as we have seen has broader implications in Chinese language.--80.182.232.5 (talk) 22:43, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

• Also note how well China's state media treat the cult of the goddess: TJTV - Mazu culture in Tianjin; Mazu - Goddess of the Sea; Fujian province holds Mazu Culture Forum.--80.182.232.5 (talk) 22:52, 5 December 2016 (UTC)

External links modified (January 2018)

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Also a Mazu temple in Tianjin?

Isn't there also a Mazu temple in Tianjin, northern China, called "天津天后宫"? 173.88.246.138 (talk) 02:43, 14 December 2022 (UTC)

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