Talk:Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla

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There are so many sources that are on-line. Which one is correct?

Where was he born? zacztecaz Wasn't he from a the beautiful and amazingly fruitful land of Spain? For lieth to me not good sir.

"pure" and "criollo" (creole) seems like a contradiction.

In Colonial Spanish America, Crillo, creole, means a person of only European (specifically Spanish ) descent born in the Americas. A Peninsular was someone born in IBERIA but living in the Americas. In the social hierarchy, Peninsulares are usually seen as slightly "superior" to crillos, but by no means were there restrictions the Crillos' ascension.

What is that (above)? Rbraunwa 18:29, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

What Bachelor Degree did he get? Masters208.68.153.242 15:57, 15 September 2006 (UTC)[[]]ELEKTRA KOJAK[[]]

Not Racism

Changed racism to chauvinism in the uprising section since it states that the preference was for Iberian spaniards versus Mexicans of pure spanish blood. It can't be racism between groups of the same race. Lycurgus 01:46, 16 September 2007 (UTC)

"Race" is pretty much a social construct, and so "chauvinism" is always a more accurate, if perhaps simultaneously a more vague term. While US-centric, see Definitions of whiteness in the United States for a discussion of how "whiteness" has become more expansive term over the centuries. I suspect that your logic is that both Spanish and indigenous Mexicans are both hispanic, and therefore the same race. You should know that "hispanic" isn't actually a racial term, but rather a description of a culture. Thus on modern US census forms the blocks "white-non-hispanic" and "white-hispanic", in addition to "latino/a". Personally, I would argue that a Mexican of Spanish descent is not the same "race" as an Mexican of indigenous descent, since they appear different. Case in point [[Emiliano Zapata] vs Vicente Fox vs Juan Carlos I of Spain. So while I agree with your change, I disagree with your rationale. 128.114.60.40 (talk) 04:34, 6 May 2009 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Orozco Hidalgo mural.jpg

Image:Orozco Hidalgo mural.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot 10:15, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Uploaded new photo that I took myself of the same mural. Vrac 22:45, 7 November 2007 (UTC)

Lock

I suggest getting this article locked. It has recently been vandalized a lot    Juthani1   ^tcs 22:55, 30 October 2008 (UTC)

rewrite reverted

I did a massive rewrite on this artile that was reverted. My work was definitely not vandalism.Thelmadatter (talk) 15:04, 9 December 2008 (UTC)

The First Section

The first section is awefully long and needs to be broken up    World   ^tcs 02:55, 10 December 2008 (UTC)

Fact Dispute

After looking through the article, there are refs however IPS are constantly changing info. I don't know if this informaton is reliable. I also have found a few of the dates to be incorrect. The may be more World (talk • contributions) 22:14, 23 February 2009 (UTC)

True dat... Every source I looked at... online and on paper varies a lot on dates.... Thelmadatter (talk) 17:29, 1 April 2009 (UTC)

Its a personal opinion — Preceding unsigned comment added by 96.234.70.57 (talk) 22:31, 24 October 2011 (UTC)

Reference No. 9 is a dead link. PrairieCat (talk) 08:23, 30 July 2016 (UTC)

Fixed intro

The previous intro was looonnng and made the subsequent article almost redundant. I edited it to show what he was actually famous for, as a good intro should be. As far as what I replaced it with, feel free to edit that if you think it is inaccurate. --Phil5329 (talk) 17:12, 15 September 2009 (UTC)

Lock this down

This page is being modified by unreliable sources.-— Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.251.115.64 (talk) 14:19, 15 September 2010 (UTC)

POV tag (fake portraits)

All 19th century paintings of Hidalgo, like the ones you see in this article, are fake. All were based on an original portrait of a man of Austrian origin who posed as Hidalgo because nobody had painted a portrait of the real Hidalgo by the time he was elevated to the status of father of the independence, and the man was long dead and the new nation needed a noble face to honor (just as the Americans have their portraits of George Washington).

Finding a reliable source, even in Spanish, for the above statement will be easy. All Hidalgo portraits should thus be removed from the article.

—201.141.118.154 (talk) 01:24, 21 November 2013 (UTC)

If you are making the claim, it is your responsibility to provide the references to reliable sources. Regardless it is not a POV issue, so I am removing the maintenance tag. —howcheng {chat} 10:41, 7 May 2014 (UTC)

the claim on this page about the criollos not being to have jobs as priests until the mid-1700's is not true

i've seen priest ordination documents for criollos since the mid-1600's — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.95.11.41 (talk) 04:55, 9 December 2013 (UTC)

here's a priest ordination for a criollo in 1684 https://familysearch.org/pal:/MM9.3.1/TH-1-18376-25521-47?cc=1874591&wc=M99L-KDS:338133613 — Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.95.11.41 (talk) 09:01, 2 January 2014 (UTC)

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Sephardi Jew?

Interesting flag about Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla with David's star.

This article debunks the Royalist accusations of Jewishness against Miguel Hidalgo. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 10:06, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Some Misconceptions About the Crypto-Jews in Colonial Mexico Martin A. Cohen American Jewish Historical Quarterly Vol. 61, No. 4 (JUNE, 1972), pp. 277-293

judgment document of Miguel Hidlago. A brief history of the Jews in Mexico Estudios genéticos israelíes descubren judíos en Colorado y México. A novel Hidalgo el Sefardita This a documents, articles and books about Sephardic accusations against Miguel Hidalgo y Costilla.--Marrovi (talk) 16:54, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

The first source is a primary source accusing him of being a Jew. This is the very document that is being debunked in the article above. He was accused of all kinds of heresies by the royalists, and the accusations were false. The second sources you have presented is not reliable (it also recycles the debunked claim about Las Casas) and the third source is entirely irrelevant in relation to the question. The fourth source is a selfpublished novel. ·maunus · snunɐɯ· 16:34, 13 June 2016 (UTC)

Fact checking required

The links to source [2], [3], [8] and [9] don't work. The statements citing these sources need to be checked. Also, the "Education, ordination and early career" section should be broken up into three categories for clarity.

These statements need to be backed up by sources: "The insurgents overwhelmed the defenses after two days and killed everyone inside, an estimated 400 - 600 men, women and children. Allende strongly protested these events and while Hidalgo agreed that they were heinous, he also stated that he understood the historical patterns that shaped such responses." The statement implies that Hidalgo condoned the killings, when his stance may be much more nuanced. Amandayeoh (talk) 21:22, 12 February 2017 (UTC)

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flaying of hands

this is mentioned as a torture. A symbolic scraping of hands was part of the defrocking ceremony. Then he was handed over. The state would have no reason to repeat this particular gesture. The English source doesn't mention it, and I don't know Spanish. --142.163.195.49 (talk) 22:02, 27 February 2021 (UTC)

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