Talk:Morné Morkel

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Requested move 6 February 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: No consensus to move. Since it is understandable that many sports and web sources in English use the form without accent, we typically require more evidence than "most sources appear to not use the accent". The evidence by Blue Square Thing and the discussion below suggest that the name is properly spelled Morné, until the BLP subject expresses a definitive preference (Roman Spinner's social-media evidence notwithstanding). No such user (talk) 11:21, 22 February 2021 (UTC)

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Morné Morkel → Morne Morkel – No evidence that he uses é rather than e in his name. See for example his own Twitter [1], as well as multiple reliable sources spelling it as Morne: Cricinfo, Cricbuzz, The Cricketer, BBC Sport. Joseph2302 (talk) 10:35, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• Query: accents cause a bunch of issues in web sources and I can understand why it hasn't been used simply from that perspective. Do we have any indication from printed sources whether or not the accent should be used? Blue Square Thing (talk) 10:49, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

I have checked PressReader, which has many printed newspapers on there. And all of them look to use Morne Morkel: [2] (you can scroll across to see more, and ignore the partial name matches that aren't him) Joseph2302 (talk) 10:57, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• I suppose I'm looking for an image of a printed source to see how it's rendered when we're looking at a piece of paper - anything being transferred to a digital typed format can strip out accents and so on as they're difficult to render reliably in the long term on a range of browsers. Those sources are, of course, difficult to find. I did find this image which uses the accent - it's from last November's Wisden Cricket Monthly (digital advert thingy here). This article from 2017 also uses the accent - it's a South African printed source of some kind.

My gut feeling is that I would have no problem moving the article to Morne, but that we should probably use Morné in the lead and infobox - so the opposite of what we currently have! Blue Square Thing (talk) 13:32, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• Support. Most sources appear to not use the accent. Rreagan007 (talk) 18:53, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support per detailed nomination and Rreagan007. No indication that subject is referenced via an accented name or that he himself uses an accent in his name. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 21:56, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

• Well, there's two print articles linked above that do use the accent. Iirc there was one other print article I found that didn't. I'll check Wisden at some point. Blue Square Thing (talk) 22:38, 6 February 2021 (UTC)

In cases such as this, key evidence comes from professional databases, such as those linked in the nomination, as well as from subject's personal use of his own name — in addition to another link in the nomination — Twitter, here is Morne Morkel's website and here is his Instagram account. All use "Morne", not "Morné". —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 04:04, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Roman, you know that we never follow Twitter and Instagram accounts for accents yes? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:28, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

If English language sources refer to him as Morne (no accent), then we should do, as per WP:USEENGLISH. Joseph2302 (talk) 19:10, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

In ictu oculi, one size does not fit all and some English-speaking Afrikaaners, such as Morne Morkel, Anglicize their names. Since no Wikipedia guideline specifically cautions agains mentioning social media as well as personal or professional websites in the process of determining how a subject of a Wikipedia article fashions his or her own name, those venues, along with professional databases, such as the mentioned-in-the-nomination Cricinfo, Cricbuzz or The Cricketer, provide discussion participants with consensus-building evidence to consider in the face of inconsistent name depictions in newspaper and magazine reporting. —Roman Spinner (talk • contribs) 19:22, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

WP:CRICKETNAMES in fact. What bells does that ring....? In ictu oculi (talk) 19:47, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

Part of the problem is that we're relying on web sources, where accents cause more problems typing them, may be removed during editing and create difficulties with rendering. If you want a definitive professional database then I suppose we should use Wisden? It's profile of Morkel uses the accent; in an article from December 2019 they don't, but in one from September 2019 they do. And, I'll say it again, this is Wisden. By all means provide a more canonical professional database if you want.

The accent is clearly a thing, but I don't think there's a consistent use of it either way. Part of this might be factoring in whether or not people know to use the accent (which we'd not be helping by moving the article) or even know how to insert the accent - and laziness of people on social media is really not a justification for very much here imo. If Morné is his official name I imagine we'd be best to leave the article at that - there are no navigation problems and some of the people who don't know about the accent will receive a pleasant surprise when they get to the article.

Oppose per the above. Increasingly strongly actually. Blue Square Thing (talk) 19:13, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose he's an Afrikaaner and this is part of his name. https://www.netwerk24.com/huisgenoot/Nuus/protea-krieketspeler-morne-morkel-kondig-groot-nuus-aan-20180226 In ictu oculi (talk) 23:27, 6 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support per supports above. Irrespective of whether usage is forced by the palate of character options, usage is usage. BD2412 T 06:40, 13 February 2021 (UTC)
• Support Rreagan007 (talk) 03:58, 16 February 2021 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Morné

Morné is a South African or Namibian masculine given name. Notable people with the name include:

• Morné du Plessis (born 1949), former South African rugby union player
• Morné Engelbrecht (born 1988), South African-born Namibian cricketer
• Morné Hanekom (born 1988), South African rugby union player
• Morné Karg (born 1977), Namibian cricketer
• Morné Morkel (born 1984), South African cricketer
• Morné Nagel (born 1978), South African sprinter
• Morné Schreuder (born 1979), Namibian rugby union player
• Morné Steyn (born 1984), South African rugby union player
• Morné van Wyk (born 1979), South African cricketer

..........tell you what, why don't we trawl the web for low-MOS sports websites and Twitter and do a bulk move to clean all these South Africans of this totally un-British accent? Why Britishize just one Afrikaaner? why not give a name-trim to all of them? In ictu oculi (talk) 18:33, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

I've added the accents in the lead and infobox and added a note to the lead to explain that the accent is not always used. Could people check that and tweak it as required - @In ictu oculi: is it right to say that is an Afrikaner name or would Southern African be more accurate? Blue Square Thing (talk) 19:20, 7 February 2021 (UTC)

There's a template Template:Native name that might be of help (if the article does get moved to Morne). That template would tell readers that his native name is Morné, even if the article title doesn't have the é. Joseph2302 (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

And in answer to the question about other people called Morné, most of them seem to be called Morné in at least some English language sources. Whereas Morkel doesn't appear to be. I'm not disupting that his "proper" name is Morné, just that Morne is his WP:COMMONNAME in English language sources (including how he chooses to call himself on Twitter). Joseph2302 (talk) 17:15, 13 February 2021 (UTC)

Morkel is, including by Wisden. No one's yet suggested a more official source than that tbh. I'll take Wisden over how he choose people to be able to quickly write his name in an app. Sorry, I often agree with you and started with an open mind here, but there's far too much convenient ignoring of key sources by some of the replies in the section above. It's clearly mixed with Morkel. Blue Square Thing (talk) 17:42, 13 February 2021 (UTC)