Talk:Mr. Bungle

Opinions regarding Mr. Bungle

Removed

Their music sounds amazing and innovative to some and masturbatory and tiresome to others, and they have never found widespread commercial success, despite being fronted by former Faith No More singer Mike Patton, nor have they actively sought it. They were rumored only able to maintain their high production values because of guitarist Trey Spruance's considerable inherited wealth, but this has since been proven false ([ http://www.perfectpitchonline.com/v01i07/trey_spruance.php] ).

Mr. Bungle is Ok

Mr. Bungle as a band is Ok. The album California on the other hand, is probably one of the greatest albums ever... Disco Volante is sort of avangard, and the other material IS kind of masturbatory. But songs like Ars Moriendi, Goodbye Sober Day, and None Of Them New They Were Robots have a quality which is epochal to say the least. What does it mean to say that the band never had any commercial success?

Is are Moriendi the song that sounds loke freaking Arabian Metal? To say that a band had commercial success would mean that they enjoyed vast television exposure but more importantly that they made a lot of money from their albums. 207.157.121.50 11:21, 14 October 2005 (UTC)mightyafrowhitey

Ahead of Their Time

I'm still struggling to decipher what you mean, mightyafrowhitey. But to dismiss everything Bungle produced, other than 'California' or 'Disco Volante', as mastubatory Bungle is simply ignorant. I'm going to assume you never listened to any of their 6 to 7 demos before their self-titled commercial debut? Such as:

Bowel Of Chiley

Excrement

Goddammit I Love America

Mi Stoke Il Cigaretto

OU818

Sudden Death

The Raging Wraith Of The Easter Bunny

http://www.cv.org/yellowpages/discography.htm

I suggest 'Mr Nice Guy' from 0U818

Title controversy

Removed, as the information was, a) incorrect, and b) cleared up earlier in the article. -al 05:44, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

Articles

I am writing headlines to parts of the article that I feel should be seperated so a reader can get better overview. feel free to edit what I've done, I simply feel that it should be divided into sections for more accessability

Genres

Industrial is in the list of genres they played. Hell, they played a lot of shit, but I don't recall any 'Industrial' in there. Not the art school type, the rock type or EBM. I'm totally removing it. What does that word even mean!? I replaced it with surf rock, a genre they played constantly on California (doi). Gatesofawesome!

At Chapter "Major Releases" It says: "Their self-titled debut Mr. Bungle..." I would like to add, that the debut of Mr. Bungle is also mentioned by the name "I believe in sex and death"

Folks, the long list of genres strikes me as being a bit ridiculous. If there is one thing Mr. Bungle proves if you ask me it is the fact that the division of music into genres is a waste of time. Can't we just say they had their own style influenced by many different musical directions or something? --Vunzmstr 11:05, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• Agreed, this list is getting ridiculous. I think it's already too long as it is...I'm for having a few major influences in there that are defined the most strongly in their work, though, but I see no reason to have so many genres listed in one sentence. echidnae 21:42, 14 October 2006 (UTC)

• I cut the genre list down, as it was getting VERY ridiculous. Can't we just agree that they were experimental by nature? I also could have sworn that "avant-garde" and "experimental" mean the same thing. - AG

Kiedis feud section

It's a little excessive, 76.19.27.223 19:51, 4 January 2007 (UTC)

Why, because it goes into detail about a feud that lasted throughout Mr Bungle's career & had a major impact on the band? Explain why its "excessive".

Line-up

What was the line-up for Mr. Bungle? I mean, we know who were the members, but what was each one's duty? I'm assuming that Patton was lead singer and Dunn was bassist, but what about the others? Zouavman Le Zouave _{(Talk to me! • O))))} 12:57, 12 February 2007 (UTC)

I would also like to ask why Fraggle was removed from the Line-Up section of Mr Bungle? He was one of the principle songwriters and a guitarist with Bungle for quite some time. He is now based in Sydney, Australia. (see [1] for info) (218.215.133.243 03:09, 10 March 2007 (UTC))

Catalog

"The four early pre-Warner Bros cassettes are not part of the band's official catalogue, and are considered nearly unfindable today. They are quite valued on eBay, with auctions ending in the triple digits. They are, however, downloadable from a semi-official ftp-server." That is not really true: the cassettes are out of print but that doesn't affect them being official

Regarding Mr. Bungle vs. RHCP feud

The reason Mr. Bungle was kicked off their 2000 festivals, was because in their parodies of RHCP they re-enacted the death of Hillel Slovak, Kiedis' and Flea's childhood friend and original RHCP guitarist, as a joke. You can view videos of this performance on YouTube

Based off the available videos mentioned, they do not re-enact the death of Hillel Slovak. Trevor Dunn does attempt to shoot up his ghost but he fails for obvious reasons.

They do indeed make jokes about the death of Hillel Slovak in these performances, but these performances took place after Kiedis had already kicked Bungle off of the festivals and the Bungle guys were, rightfully, unhappy with the Chili Peppers. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 199.34.238.2 (talk) 01:09, 28 February 2018 (UTC)

Semi-official FTP server?

When talking about the discography, an FTP server is mentioned. Maybe it would be wise to include a link to said FTP server? --129.7.154.124 00:42, 21 March 2007 (UTC)

Used my parent's material from time to time

My parents had a few musical projects in Eureka (Humboldt County, Calfornia) between '85 and '91, and they used to play gigs all over the place. A few notable efforts include their bands AlienNation and Claire Voyant and the Momewraths. They used to put on these really off-the-wall shows complete with weird audience contests and funky costumes, and on a few occasions, these concepts were borrowed from them and used by Bungle. No musical material, just performance concepts. A few of these include easter egg hunts throughout different venues, the whole band wearing their underclothes over their regular stuff, and much more. I'll be back to update this with clearer information at a later date. --71.49.199.55 03:20, 11 April 2007 (UTC)

Disambiguation with alleged online rapist

Should this article have a disambiguation link to A Rape in Cyberspace, which talks about Mr. Bungle, the username of an alleged online rapist? I say "alleged" because there was no conviction as far as I can tell. I would guess that the band is far more notable than the other meaning. However, I came to this article looking for the online screen name, so perhaps others might come here as well (I was reading this article and came to Wikipedia to find information about it that is less excessively verbose as this other article). If there is to be a disambiguation link (I think a disambiguation page is inappropriate due to the large difference in notability), I suggest something like, "This article is about the band. For the username, see A Rape in Cyberspace." -- Kjkolb 02:19, 11 May 2007 (UTC)

Needs citations

I've removed some material from the article which was unsourced. If sources can be found, please add (with source) back to the article. -- Mr Bungle 08:28, 29 May 2007 (UTC)

Self titled debut

This raised a minor controversy, as several other videos aired at the time (including videos for Nirvana) contained images considered more graphic than those of "Travolta"..

Disco Volante

In doing so, the album constituted a marriage of formal, academic avant-garde with informal pop culture, and as such is an excellent representation of the synthesis of high art and low art.

Stage show

The presentation of the band on stage has sometimes been close to a realization of Antonin Artaud's Theatre of Cruelty in the musical domain.

Re this circus metal addition, while valuable, unfortunately I can't find any supporting cites for it, if it can be cited please move it back to the article. -- Mr Bungle | talk 07:36, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Mr. Bungle and a few bands that were heavily influenced by them have been recognised by some as representing a new metal subgenre called Circus Metal. These bands incorporate the constantly changing styles of Mr. Bungle, as well as the use of non-standard instruments and samples. The most notable of these bands are Dog Fashion Disco and Tub Ring, but several upcoming bands now use the subgenre to describe themselves.

Fair use rationale for Image:Mr. bungle-logo.png

Image:Mr. bungle-logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.BetacommandBot 23:24, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

NOT TODAY, BOTS!!! = ∫_t^c 5th Eye 23:40, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Good Article Review – Failed

The article, as whole, has various grammatical and structure problems that keep it from being passed as a GA:

• During the course of their career the band also had an ongoing feud with Red Hot Chili Peppers frontman Anthony Kiedis, which escalated in the late 90s with Kiedis having Mr. Bungle removed from a number of large music festivals in Europe and Australasia where the Chili Peppers were headlining." Good information, but it needs to be trimmed and divided into several sentences. Far too long in it's current state.
• The article has an overall colloquial tone:
  • "The content is, however, very hard to pin down using specific genres, and the structure and musical style of any single track frequently changes dramatically" Too informal.
• "Critic Steve Huey wrote in All Music Guide "Mr. Bungle is a dizzying, disconcerting, schizophrenic tour through just about any rock style the group can think of, hopping from genre to genre without any apparent rhyme or reason, and sometimes doing so several times in the same song." Should be reworded to sound more fluent.
• "The album featured numerous samples, including Kentucky Fried Chicken commercial outtakes, items from the videogames "Super Mario Bros”, "Smash TV”, and “RBI Baseball", the movies Blue Velvet and Sharon's Sex Party, and the pinball games "Cyclone," “Earthshaker," and "Haunted House." I have absolutely no idea what this sentence means. Also, there are several punctuation issues such as using a period before the quotes of a song title.
• Personally, I believe this article comes across as very...favorable to Mr. Bungle and there's little to no criticism of the band's material. Whoever wrote the article is far too biased and there needs to be some outside help gathering sources which criticized the band.
• The entire section regarding his feud with Kiedis is relatively un-encyclopedic in this article, as it's basically a Patton thing, and he's simply using the band to levitate his beliefs.

There's a lot of work to be done before resubmitting. If you feel this assessment was conducted in error, please, feel free to seek a review. NSR77 ^T_C 21:03, 6 August 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mr. bungle-logo.png

Image:Mr. bungle-logo.png is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to insure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images uploaded after 4 May, 2006, and lacking such an explanation will be deleted one week after they have been uploaded, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot 22:35, 6 November 2007 (UTC)

Is there any reason...

Why the pictures were switched around? --74.135.59.209 (talk) 05:48, 5 January 2008 (UTC)

Does anyone know why the articles for the demos were deleted?

And more importantly why there was no debate on the matter? Pwrong (talk) 13:20, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

Seems they went through AfD Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/Bowel of Chiley and were deemed non notable. I didn't even notice. They would need to be sourced better to be recreated. Mr Bungle | talk 21:12, 21 October 2008 (UTC)

I can find sources for them. How do I find the articles so I can do it? Or do they have to be rewritten? Pwrong (talk) 14:19, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

According to WP:MUSIC, demos are non-notable in general, unless you have enough reliable sources. I am not in favour of that deletion, but post here these sources, so that we know whether they are reliable enough - whether it is worth to recreate the article.--  LYKANTROP  ✉ 14:25, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

AMG reviewed Bowel of Chiley [2] but not the other demos. You would need to get an admin to retrieve the deleted information; probably best to get the information moved to your user space to work on it/source it before recreation.Mr Bungle | talk 21:07, 27 October 2008 (UTC)

Feud with RHCP.

I'm removing this section as it has been brought up on the talk page here before and I think it is rather crass to have included in an encyclopedia entry.Air.light (talk) 03:37, 5 March 2010 (UTC)

Mike Patton writing the majority of stuff on their albums...

This is simply not true. This claim cites liner notes on albums as reference, and if you check those on their very own pages here on wikipedia, you'll see that Patton is hardly over 50% writing credits (for music, at least) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 212.124.171.181 (talk) 20:47, 15 July 2010 (UTC)

Isn't over 50% the literal definition of "majority"? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 209.123.223.2 (talk) 17:30, 5 May 2011 (UTC)

Travolta/Quote Unquote

This song was released as a promo single and just because its Mr.Bungle's only single ever doesn't mean it shouldn't be mentioned. On Both the Mr.Bungle article and the Mr. Bungle album article this information should be added. Mrmoustache14 (talk) 23:23, 9 January 2013 (UTC)

Also the Spanish and Italian Wikipedia's both have articles for "Quote Unquote", yet the English (which Mr. Bungle is more relevant to) doesn't. Should this be changed? Mrmoustache14 (talk) 05:09, 18 May 2013 (UTC)

Death metal vandalism

The genre death metal keeps getting readded as an "early genre" despite the fact that it is unsourced. The article says that early demos had "elements of death metal", which does not identify Mr. Bungle as a death metal band, and the sources would clearly indicate the early demos as being experimental/avant-garde metal. The repeated readding of this genre and removal of several sourced genres is not encyclopedic. Is this an encylopedia, or a source of fanboyism? Please leave your personal opinions for Wikia sites, or else Wikipedia should just be renamed "Wiki Site" because this is NOT how an encyclopedia operates. ProgGuy (talk) 19:37, 22 June 2014 (UTC)

I think you should heed your own advice. Also, bands can be experimental and death metal at the same time. I don't know about all their early demons, but their first one is clearly in the style of early extreme thrash/proto-death metal bands. I don't really care if the genre is removed, since it makes up only a tiny bit of their career (though it's mentioned in the articles body anyway). My main issue is using "jazz metal" as a valid genre (the link just leads to the jazz fusion page) and removing the avant-garde metal label (and exprerimental metal is the same thing). I agree with adding alternative metal. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 20:24, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

There's no article for avant garde metal, it just redirects to experimental metal. I don't see any sources saying that Mr. Bungle was a death metal band. I see a statement in the article saying that the early demos included elements of death metal. That doesn't make them a death metal band.

OK, correction, there was no article for avant garde metal at the time I last edited, now the same article has been renamed. ProgGuy (talk) 21:13, 24 June 2014 (UTC)

• At this point, removing the genre field altogether may be a good option if this guy is just going to keep coming in and adding "death metal" and other stuff anonymously. Maybe leaving only "avant-garde metal" as a generalization will keep the guy from adding more unsourced stuff, but maybe he'll just keep reverting the article. This is ridiculous. ProgGuy (talk) 19:03, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

You're the same person who kept insisting on putting ska punk as a genre. They only ever used elements of upbeat ska guitar riffs. That equally doesn't make them a ska punk or even a ska band. I'm not adding or deleting anything because I just don't care what a Wikipedia article says about a band's genre. I think to it's a bit hypocritical though for you to accuse this other user of vandalism and edit warring when you're doing the same thing, if not worse. The genres listed were there for about three years with no issue until you came and had to be your way with no discussion.NJZombie (talk) 23:44, 25 June 2014 (UTC)

Firstly, you singularly have no idea what you're talking about. Stop trying to justify repeatedly adding death metal without sources by pointing out that I reverted edits of vandalism. That's the whole point that I'm reverting vandalism. Because it's vandalism. I did not "insist" on ska punk or any other genre, I just reverted edits that added death metal as a genre when the sources don't justify it. You're really trying to pull this nonsense when you know full well that not only are the reverted edits not justified, but that editing anonymously to add an unsourced genre is an act of cowardice? I'm pretty convinced that you're the one doing this, since you're the only one defending your own edits. ProgGuy (talk) 19:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

I've already invited you to have an admin run an IP check on me and compare it to the anonymous editor. It's not me, so I have no worries whatsoever. You're so sure of it yet you've also accused other editors who don't agree with you of the exact same thing. You're accusations are building to a civility case on here that could get you blocked if you keep it up. You've constantly made accusations of vandalism, which it is NOT. You've tried to cite 3RR when nobody has violated that rule. 3RR would be three reverts in a 24 hour period. Hasn't happened yet. I'm not justifying either yours or the anonymous editor's changing. In fact, I've frequently suggested you get a vote for consensus here on the talk page, as opposed to bullying your way into it and constantly reverting. You're just as guilty in the edit war as they are. My issue with you is not the genre change itself but it's your being on the sire for a few months and refusal to follow procedure in addition to your attempts to bully people into accepting your changes. NJZombie (talk) 20:25, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The connection between death metal and early Mr. Bungle can be seen in a couple of pre-Wikipedia sources. (1998, Trey Spruance: The mimicry of forms", Osprey, Humboldt University; 2002, "Mr. Bungle", Motherfucking Masterpieces, Acid Logic; 2004, "Mr. Bungle", Bunglefever; Allmusic; 1999, "Mr. Bungle California (Warner) Bridging the..." Chigago Tribune; 1999, "Sound Files", Spin; 1990 "Faith No More: Artists of the Year", Spin. The question is whether this connection rises to the level of a genre that the band is known for. I have seen so many genres listed for this band that any one of them becomes too much emphasis on its own. Are they a tango band? No, but they have produced songs with a tango flair. Are they a death metal band? No, but they have produced music with some death metal features. Binksternet (talk) 04:33, 26 June 2014 (UTC)

Exactly. There's no justification for calling Mr. Bungle a death metal band rather than saying that their music has had elements of death metal. Those early demos, what is featured on them would be described as avant-garde metal. Combining death and thrash metal with "a train whistle, a saxophone, bongos and a kazoo"? That is avant-garde metal, the mixing of genres. Cut and slice it however you want, elements of a genre do not make a band a part of that genre. To quote the article Underground_music:

In effect, this means a boy band (for instance) could be influenced by a (formerly) obscure 1960s garage rock, early 1980s post punk, noise rock acts like Pussy Galore or even composers of avant-garde classical music such as John Cage and Karlheinz Stockhausen, while maintaining recognisability as a boy band.

Simply stated, there is no reason for death metal to be on there. It is fancruft. ProgGuy (talk) 19:11, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

The thing is, their early demos are early thrash/death with elements of "avant-garde metal" (which is a genre that didn't exist back then, by the way). Just like Into the Pandemonium is an extreme/thrash metal album with "avant-garde" elements. It doesn't need to be mentioned in the genre box, but it should remain in the article. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 21:18, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

What is your supporting source for that assertion? I have seen a lot of things said of the group's early efforts, including having circus death metal elements, clown death metal elements, and similar sorts of clown/circus adjectives that make it clear the band was never, ever, truly death metal. They were making fun of the genre. Binksternet (talk) 21:50, 27 June 2014 (UTC)

Which would mean that the death metal categorization makes about as much sense as categorizing "Weird Al" Yankovic as a gangsta rapper. ProgGuy (talk) 17:00, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

I don't care enough about this band to go looking for sources, but I've heard a bit of their first demo on Youtube (and I'm not using that as a supporting "source" in regards to the article, so don't worry) which just sounds like extreme thrash with harsh vocals, in the vein of stuff like Possessed and early Sepultura (i.e. early death metal) with a lot of Venom and Hellhammer influence, just with a lot of weird elements thrown in. I don't know why they would bother "making fun" of a genre that was barely in formation at the time, and bands like Spinal Tap and Dethklok also "made fun" of genres they're considered to play, anyway. Like I said, I don't care if death metal remains in the infobox, since it makes up a small part of their career, but the fact that they had "death metal elements" should remain in the article. My main issue was with the addition of stuff like ska punk to the genre box. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 17:46, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

Having actually looked at the sources provided, most of them are about their later material and are irrelevant to the discussion, but of the two articles that do mention their early days (the Acidlogic and Bunglefever ones), I present to you the following lines: "All the members of the band had gotten their start in the burgeoning genre of Death Metal" and "Mr. Bungle's first demo tape, "The Raging Wrath of the Easter Bunny," was recorded in 1986. It featured a low-fi, fast, death metal style". I doesn't outright say "Mr. Bungle used to be a death metal band", but it seems pretty clear to me.

Edit: The Spin article also says that they stated out as a death metal band. Adding the "Laurel and Hardy" bit in front of it doesn't make it any less so. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 18:11, 28 June 2014 (UTC)

What we have here is sources saying that Mr. Bungle incorporated elements of death metal into their style early in their career. Let's not confuse the issue here with bad semantics of cherrypicked sources. ProgGuy (talk) 22:35, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Nope, All the articles I mentioned pretty much say they they played death metal. One can easily say that they had "elements" of avant-garde metal. What genre do you think they played on their demo then? No band can simply be "avent-garde" metal, since the style is too varied. They'd be avant-garde black metal, avant-garde prog metal, avant-garde alternative metal, etc. And I didn't chose the "cherrypicked" sources (which apparently means any source that you didn't personally pick). Give me a couple of decent sources that say that they only had "elements of death metal" on their first demo while giving a definitive label for their style and you'll have your argument. I find it funny that you have a problem with adding death metal because they only had elements of it, but were fine with adding ska punk. Either way, it doesn't matter if death metal is ultimately listed or not, but fans of the band can make of the articles what they will. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 00:03, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• NONE OF THE SOURCES SAY THAT THEY PLAYED DEATH METAL. End of story. Stop adding this to the article. 71.215.181.115 (talk) 12:30, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Like I mentioned above, there are sources saying that they played death metal. I don't give enough of a crap about this band to bother with adding it though. SonOfPlisskin (talk) 18:26, 21 December 2014 (UTC)

Death Metal.

I've noticed in the past there's been controversy over adding death metal (early, of course) to the genres. I think it's probably well-sourced enough now, but I'm hesitant to add it myself, as their death metal period was such a short-lived time in their career. At least relative to the other genres listed, and even then, they didn't stick to anything particularly long, which puts into perspective just how short that period was. What do you guys think? Lynchenberg (talk) 20:44, 8 July 2017 (UTC)

Well, no debate. Guess they play the death metal then, HANH? Hah, hah, hah. Lynchenberg (talk) 04:50, 29 July 2017 (UTC)

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Ska punk.

There have been recent edits made by Madreterra removing ska punk from the genres, under the belief that the sources listed do not consider the band to have played ska punk early in their career. (By early in their career, I'm referring to the period from roughly 1986 to 1992, during which time they were also playing a lot of jazz, funk metal, and were just beginning to get more experimental). While it is true most of these sources refer to a large cut of the band's late-80s/early-90s material as ska rather than ska-punk, there are a few other factors to consider. Firstly, it's common knowledge to most followers of ska music that any American band playing what is referred to as ska from the eighties onward (1986 is the year Bungle first began to break away from their 1985 thrash/death/speed metal roots) is actually playing what is known as ska punk. This euphemism is common in media coverage of bands like Operation Ivy, The Aquabats, and The Toasters among others, whose early ska punk material is generally referred to as simply ska. Moreover, if one were to play The Skatalites, early Toots and the Maytals, early Wailers, Prince Buster and then play some early Fishbone (a band who, like Bungle, played lots of ska-punk early in their career before moving on) you'll find that in demos like Bowel of Chiley, Goddammit I Love America, OU818, and self-titled album songs like Carousel, Egg, and Love is Fist (heck, even pieces of their debut death metal demo) Bungle has far, FAR more common with the latter than with the former.

This is corroborated by AllMusic, which despite what Madreterra said in his most recent edit, does not JUST list Bungle's genres as ska-punk in the sidebar, but also in the review of Bowel of Chiley, which makes note of the ska/punk connection in this early material. If I may quote, "...a lack of structure is certainly what this suffers from, offering little more than extended funk and ska jams that have few hooks or memorable parts to recommend them. Still, songs like 'Evil Satan' and 'You Can't Make Me Mad' are fun little punk songs that don't overstay their welcome and contain decent hooks." There is no smoking gun "ska-punk" sentence, but given what I've previously explained (that ska and ska-punk refer to the same genre when it comes to any American "ska" band from the eighties onward, unless it' specifically noted that the band plays in a 1960s throwback style) and the fact that--whether or not we're allowed to use that specific part of AllMusic as a reference--the same site saw fit to include ska-punk in their genres, I think what they meant is clear. That said, even if I were to concede the lack of a specific "ska-punk" sentence in the Bowel of Chiley review, that article still makes reference to the fact that the band was playing ska at that point in time, and there's plenty of other secondary sources in the article that make reference to Bungle playing ska (among other things, obviously) from the mid-eighties up to the self-titled album, which is also where they started taking on the avant-garde/experiment qualities that they would focus on for the remainder of their career, after breaking away from ska entirely and with very few exceptions, even from funk and metal.

If asked, I can easily find plenty of other secondary sources that also mention the ska connection during this period, although it's not necessary; we have plenty. Unfortunately, there are no secondary sources for Bungle's death metal era as it was even shorter-lived than their subsequent eras, but the same is not true for their ska period (or ska-punk period, to be clearer). So at the very most, Madreterra shouldn't be deleting sources and genres with no explanation, but rather, editing ska punk so it just says ska. But for the reasons I've stated, I think it would be more accurate to list ska-punk. There are secondary sources that also call Bungle a funk band or a funk rock band, but it's obvious to anyone listening that what they're playing in those songs is funk metal, not straight up funk or even funk rock, and the infobox reflects that. At no point did Bungle ever play ska that wasn't also mixed with punk, or in the case of the self-titled era, dozens of others genres to boot.

At this point, I invite Madreterra to make a counterargument and see what the consensus from other editors is, but until that time, maybe we should just leave the info-box alone, as at the very best, the sources still say that Bungle played ska. 45.74.67.15 (talk) 00:26, 3 June 2018 (UTC)

First of all, thank you for taking the time to explain your edits. I completely understand that, when referring to more modern bands (especially more rock-based modern bands), the term "ska" is often used as short hand for "ska punk", "2 Tone," or "Third Wave ska" rather than traditional Jamaican ska. And I agree that much of Mr. Bungle's earlier work in particular falls loosely within the "ska punk" genre (at least to the extent that any of Mr. Bungle's music can be narrowed down to one genre). At the very least, it is undeniable that both ska and punk elements are prominent in Bungle's early work, and it would perhaps make sense that, as a band from California in the 1980s, they may have been more influenced by the ska-punk movement or the punk-flavored 2 Tone and Third Wave movement as opposed to original 1960s ska. So, yes, I do understand what you're saying.

However, with all that said, one simple fact remains: there are no true sources for "ska-punk". The sources say that Bungle has "ska" influences. Regardless of whether or not you or I may understand that the use of "ska" may be shorthand for "ska-punk", the reality is that, as the sources do not expound on how in particular they are defining ska in their respective articles, it remains POV to assume that the sources are referring to "ska-punk" rather than "ska".

While it may in fact be the case that Bungle was influenced by "ska-punk" rather than traditional "ska", it is presumptuous to make the unsourced assertion that the sources are definitely referring to "ska-punk" influences rather than "ska" influences. First, we don't know for sure that Mr. Bungle's ska influences come from "ska-punk" rather than just "ska", and the sources do not make a distinction as to this. In fact, it is not incredibly difficult to believe that the same band that is influenced by klezmer, space-age exotica, Pet Sounds-era surf rock, and avant-jazz would also be influenced by classic 1960s ska. Second of all, "ska-punk" is, obviously, already influenced by traditional ska. Maybe this is a bit of a logical fallacy, but, in practice, if the sources are in fact using the term "ska" as synonymous with "ska-punk", then they are more or less still indirectly saying that Mr. Bungle is influenced by "ska" in general, regardless of whether these influences came secondhand through the Specials or Fishbone or firsthand through Jimmy Cliff or Prince Buster himself. Basically, if we are going to use these sources, simply saying that Mr. Bungle has "ska" influences would be the preferable choice, as it both indirectly covers "ska-punk" and, quite frankly, is a sourced statement, unlike the unsourced and POV "ska-punk".

Finally, even if we are to accept that the sources are using "ska" as shorthand for "ska-punk", or, alternatively, that the sources referring to both "ska" and "punk" influences are essentially saying that Mr. Bungle is "ska-punk" in a roundabout way, it still doesn't make sense to put "ska-punk" as a main genre in the infobox. If the sources themselves can't even be bothered to definitively refer to Mr. Bungle as a "ska-punk" band, why should "ska-punk" be put down as one of their main genres in the infobox?Madreterra (talk) 14:49, 9 June 2018 (UTC)

The Death Metal Strikes Back.

In the past, it's been agreed death metal wasn't well-sourced enough to be a main genre in the infobox, while personally, I felt they never played pure death metal long enough for it be a main genre. However, given that they're reuniting specifically to perform death metal songs (even going so far as hire Scott Ian and Dave Lombardo) do you think it's time to add it to the infobox? I can easily find sources saying they're playing death metal now if so. Lynchenberg (talk) 13:33, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

The question will be determined by the sources and how they present the Bungle/death metal intersection. Binksternet (talk) 15:06, 13 September 2019 (UTC)

http://www.faithnomorefollowers.com/2016/03/mr-bungle-raging-wrath-of-easter-bunny.html I know this is a fansite, and therefore we can't cite it itself. However, this page itself cites a number of non-cite sources that are far more official, where the band describes itself as playing "total death metal" on this album, although it's mentioned three songs (Grizzly Adams, Hypocrites and Evil Satan) the band showed where they would later go. Would any of these sources be worth citing in terms of supporting the death metal question? 174.89.31.89 (talk) 21:26, 14 September 2019 (UTC)

Are we overdoing metal in the genres?

I feel like we may be, as so far we've got alternative metal, avant-garde metal, funk metal, death metal and thrash metal. Death and thrash metal seem to be describing the same era, which would be the Raging Wrath of the Easter Bunny era, aka, the material they've reformed to play. However, this material has also been described by the band as speed metal by Dunn in older interviews, death metal/ska by Spruance in modern interviews, pure death metal by Patton in older interviews, and just plain thrash metal since reforming. They seem to flex with regards to what exactly what the material on Raging Wrath of the Easter Bunny is, but as this is all describing the same material, I think we need to come to some kind of understanding on what exactly we're going to label in the main genres for this era. Especially considering they played so many genres, that the infobox could become overloaded if we listed every single one, instead of just keeping each era to one or two core genres. Metal, of whatever stripe describes the Raging Wrath era, ska or ska-punk describes the subsequent demo tape era, and the Warner Bros era is best described as experimental, be that labelled avant-garde, avant-garde metal or experimental rock. Speed metal, thrash metal, and death metal all describe the same music, so I think we need to cite just one of them. Perhaps the one that is listed most often in the sources? Lynchenberg (talk) 23:03, 14 February 2020 (UTC)

Bungle's ska period.

Hi, I thought this would be a good time to bring this up, because I recently was reading a new interview with Trey Spruance and he brought up Mr. Bungle's ska period again: https://www.revolvermag.com/music/mr-bungles-trey-spruance-everything-we-ever-did-was-metal-way

In the interview, Spruance says, "We came at Mr. Bungle as a kind of absurd metal-band-that-was-not-really-a-metal-band from the very beginning — from the very first demo tape. It's not really what other metal bands were doing. We thought it was, but it wasn't. So that weird hybrid didn't really change — we kinda switched into a ska band and did some funk for a while, but when we found our rhythm again, it kind of turned back into a metal band but with all these other weird attachments on it." There's been some controversy given another quote on this page where Trevor Dunn uses the phrase "we were by no means ever ska band." There seems to be a difference of opinion within the band about whether the band ever predominantly played ska. The other band members are silent on it, but having read/listened to many interviews with Spruance and Dunn, Dunn seems embarrassed by the demo tapes where they played ska, seeing them as amateurish and derivative of other bands, particularly Fishbone. He seems to want to forget this period of the band and remembers their death/speed/thrash metal period fondly, although he mentions a liking of the genre and remains proud of the ska-influenced material on the self-titled album (keeping in mind it's "by no means a ska" album). Spruance on the other hand seems proud of this period of the band and fondly talks about their period as an unsigned ska band in multiple interviews. There are also multiple sources in the article describing the band's sound during this period as either ska or ska-punk (although most just say ska to be fair).

Perhaps this isn't enough to include ska in the main genres on the info box, but I think describing their demo tape period as predominantly ska in the opening paragraph would be fair. Outside sources describe that material as ska or ska-punk, as does Trey Spruance. We also have contemporary quotes from Patton and Dunn describing this material at the time as ska. Patton seems to have completely moved on from that era, not mentioned it either positively or negatively in modern interviews, and Dunn seems embarrassed by that era in contemporary interviews. But one man's embarrassment doesn't change the facts gleaned from multiple sources.

What do you all think? 99.230.58.230 (talk) 21:25, 26 October 2020 (UTC)

• To begin with, I think you're reading way too much into Dunn's statements to come up with a theory of him being embarrassed to be a ska band. Even the statement by Spruance that you provided is non-committal in that he describes them having "kinda switched into a ska band." There was obviously some ska in their influences and the article makes that abundantly clear already. I'm certainly not against that. My issue is with labeling them as having ever been a flat out ska band, whether that be called ska or ska punk. They were a heavy band that incorporated and transitioned between different styles of music, ska being one of them. To start calling them a ska band would indicate that they were part of some ska scene or movement. To date, I've never seen any flyers or ads for them being part of ska shows or events. By the time the third wave ska scene had truly become an established thing, they had already released the first album. While it too contains ska elements, it's not a record by a ska band. Yet, I've also seen this article list them as a third wave ska band at times. As far as describing the Bowel of Chiley demo as being "predominantly ska," I think the current wording of it featuring "a much greater ska presence, as well as the sounds of jazz, swing and funk" is a much more accurate description of the album. There's just as much "funk" on the demo as there is ska. My overall opinion is that the article's mention of the band's connection to ska is perfectly fine as it currently stands. NJZombie (talk) 19:08, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
  • My opinion isn't so much that he was embarrassed to be in a ska band, but that he was embarrassed to be in a derivative, amateurish band that happened to play ska. He's said he has no interest in returning to that material when it's brought up and has expressed that he wishes the internet would "liquidate it". I don't think it's the genre that bothers him, he just doesn't seem to think he was playing good music at that time, regardless of genre. He's continued to post bands like Fishbone and The Wailers on social media, indicating he's not embarrassed by ska. But he definitely seems uncomfortable whenever Bowel of Chiley, Goddammit I Love America, and OU818 are brought up. Perhaps you're right and I'm reading things into Dunn's statements that aren't there. I can't definitively say he was embarrassed, but that's neither here nor there. In terms of Spruance, when he says "we kinda switched into a ska band," the word "kinda" is just filler, like "um" or "pretty much." Saying that it makes the statement non-commital is putting too much weight on a single filler word and ignoring the rest of the sentence. If he didn't think they switched into a ska band, he wouldn't have said they switched into a ska band, "kinda" or otherwise. It's the same thing as splitting hairs over a statement like "I feel you are working too hard," and "You are working too hard." Moreover, he's said the same thing in multiple interviews without using filler words. Based on the number of times Spruance brings up playing ska (with no caveats, he talks about playing flat-out ska songs in multiple interviews), I am confident that Spruance is saying that Bungle switched into a ska band before incorporating funk which led to them evolving into an experimental band. I think it's necessary to make it clear in the opening that they went through several different periods where they had several very different sounds. A death/thrash metal period in the first demo, a ska/funk period in the remaining demos, and an experimental period in their studio albums, before returning to metal upon reforming (as they always felt like a metal band at heart). The way the opening reads now makes it sound like they were death metal band that got experimental then returned to being a metal band. I think that would just as simplistic as saying they were a ska band who experimented with the avant-garde or a metal band that incorporated funk. So how about this; we leave ska out of the genre box and categories, as they were never part of the ska scene and aren't known for that period. But instead, let's still note in the opening that after the first demo tape period, they predominantly played ska and funk before going experimental.99.230.58.230 (talk) 23:28, 27 October 2020 (UTC)
    • Sorry, I still can't agree on that. I think they were always a band that was being experimental, or at least were starting with Bowel of Chiley and ska was just one of the genres incorporated into that experimenting. You can be confident on your take of exactly what Spruance is saying but without confirmation, the sentence pretty much stands on its own as written. We can't assume to know what is being implied in a source, when adding the information to Wikipedia. We go with the statement as it is provided. I'm not sure why adding a sentence like this is so important when it's made abundantly clear that ska WAS a part of that time period. I say this as a HUGE fan both Mr. Bungle AND ska. I just think you're placing a huge importance on overexplaining something that already has sufficient existing explanation. I say this with no animosity by the way, just to make that clear. I just don't understand it. NJZombie (talk) 00:20, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
      • What if in we say in the opening the demo tape period is when they started predominantly incorporating influences outside of metal and punk music?99.230.58.230 (talk) 00:37, 28 October 2020 (UTC)
        • You know what, I'm just going to concede. I'm being silly. This is explained to death in the body of the article. Not everything has to be spelled out in the opening paragraphs. We don't need to know what genre the demo tapes were.99.230.58.230 (talk) 00:50, 28 October 2020 (UTC)

Mr. Bungle bullied an autistic child at their school.

Am I blind, or does not the source say this verbatim? EDIT: I am sure the source says Mr. Bungle tormented an innocent autistic kid with a mean nickname and named the band that so he could never move on and be stuck in high school forever. They are callous, mean metal kids who were the cool clique and hurt other people just because it made them laugh.Lynchenberg (talk) 13:14, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Am I blind, or does not the source say this verbatim?Lynchenberg (talk) 13:14, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

• It says nothing of the sort. In fact, a search of the page in question does not mention the words autistic or bullied even once. The exact quote is, "As friends, we devised certain names for different people around school, and there was this one particular guy who was a total goober that we called Mr. Bungle. That name was inspired by the Pee Wee Herman special where they show footage of the little kid who was the amoral bastard, who didn't clean his belly button or whatever." This is what is now reported in the article and cited with said source. Also, take this to the article's talk page, where it belongs, not mine. NJZombie (talk) 13:19, 6 March 2021 (UTC)
  • Is that not just what did NJZombie? And isn't Goober just slang for autism and isn't name-calling a form of bullying?EDIT: I bet Mr. Bungle made that poor kid cry and he could never move on because they became a successful band and their name was everywhere and it haunted him everytime he heard anything about them wherever he went. Who knows what it ultimately led to.EDIT 2: Everyonme just laughs at people with autism and doens't take them serious, look at the tone and anger here.Some people have breakdowns because they are autistic and can't deal with this kind of thing.EDIT 3: I'm sorry! I just got emotional and made a snap deicison to bring it up on your page, you don't have to be so harsh with me and mad.Lynchenberg (talk) 13:22, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

I don't equate the word "goober" with somebody who is autistic, so I guess I'm the wrong one to ask but as was already stated, we go by what the article actually says, not what can be read into it or assumed. It doesn't say they called him that to his face, just that that was what they referred to him as. Maybe they flat out did but the article exists to report the facts presented in the cited source, not to judge whether what they said or did is nice or not. In this case, the facts are that they got the name from the 50s film aired on the Pee-Wee Herman Show, referred to another kid by that name for a while, and then used it for their band name. That's it.NJZombie (talk) 13:36, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Alright, I see your perspective now and will leave it be. But the way people in metal bands treat those with autism is a serious thing, I get passionate about it and sometiems I do not use my best judgement. Please be patient with me in future if the subject comes up again. EDIT: Some autistic people get PTSD for years based on seemingly innocuous things like what Mr. Bungle did.Lynchenberg (talk) 13:38, 6 March 2021 (UTC)

Webster's defines a "goober" as a foolish person. It was also dated slang for someone from the Southeastern U.S., such as Georgia or Arkansas. RockabillyRaccoon (talk) 03:08, 19 May 2023 (UTC)