Talk:Nakajima Kikka

Untitled

Nakajima is the company name, Kikka is the plane name.

Confirmed http://www.ne.jp/asahi/airplane/museum/nakajima/KIKKA/KItoKA.html

Development

Seems to me the article mixes up two aircraft, the experimental Nakajima 'Kikka', a straight wing research aircraft considerably smaller than the Messerschmitt 262 and the Nakkajima Ki-201 'Karyu', a projected fighter aircaft with a striking resemblance to the Messerschmitt 262, up to it's back-swept wings and much greater dimensions. Dirk P Broer 23:12, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

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BetacommandBot (talk) 17:18, 2 January 2008 (UTC)

J9Y

Is the designation J9Y for this aircraft correct? Nigel Ish (talk) 13:59, 13 January 2008 (UTC)

It would appear that the correct designation should be either J9N or J9N1. According to "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Rene J. Francillon 1987 and "Designation Systems 4. Japan" at www.hazegray.org the "J" stood for "land based" aircraft with a numeral following for that particular category of aircraft provided for the purpose. In this case the "9" would designate that the Kikka was the 9th type of aircraft in the Navy inventory for its specific purpose. These symbols were followed by the first letter, in the English alphabet, of the manufacturer, in this case "N" for Nakajima. There may have been a "1" to designate the first version. Thus J9N1. "Y" was used for Yokosuka, which had nothing to do with the Kikka.MiGpedia (talk) 16:51, 17 July 2008 (UTC)

There is no the designation of Kikka. J9Y is not formal. The title of this item is a mistake. It is necessary to delete it. --219.32.30.3 (talk) 01:15, 24 May 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. The Kikka did not have a number from everything I can find. But if it did, it would be the J9N1 version, although I have seen the Kikka referred to as J8N1 also, but this would be incorrect.

But let us start at the beginning. First of all J stood for land-based Navy aircraft followed by the number of variants. For example, J1 would be the first land-based Navy aircraft, followed by J2 as the second. The third character in the series was a letter based on the manufacturer. The fourth character would be the version number. Thus J9N1 would stand for Navy land-based, 9th aircraft in this particular category, built by Nakajima, version 1. The following table will clarify.

Aircraft Type by Letter

A Carrier fighter B Carrier bomber C Reconnaissance D Carrier dive bomber E Reconnaissance seaplane F Observation seaplane G Land-based bomber H Flying boat J Land-based fighter K Trainer L Transport M Special seaplane N Fighter seaplane P Bomber Q Patrol R Land-based reconnaissance S Night fighter

Manufacturer by Letter

A Aichi or North American B Boeing C Consolidate Aircraft D Showa or Douglas Aircraft G Hitachi Kokuki or Grumman H Hiro or Hawker He Heinkel J Nihon Kogata Hikoki or Junkers K Kawanishi or Kinner M Mitsubishi N Nakajima P Nihon S Sasebo Si Showa V Vought-Sikorsky W Watanabe or Kyushu Y Yokosuka Z Mizuno Guraida Seisakusho

The Japanese Navy land-based (J) fighter system during the war for initial types was:

J1N1 - Navy Experimental 13-Shi Fighter "Gekko" 3 seat built by Nakajima (N) J2M1 - Navy Interceptor "Raiden" 1 seat built by Mitsubishi (M) J3K1 - Navy Experimental 17-Shi Otsu Type Interceptor built by Kawanishi (K) J4M1 - Navy Experimental 17-Shi Otsu Type Interceptor Fighter "Senden" built by Mistubishi (M) J5N1 - Navy Experimental 18-Shi Otsu Type Interceptor "Tenrai" built by Nakajima (N) J6K1 - Navy Experimental 18-Shi Otsu Type Interceptor "Jinpu" built by Kawanishi (K) J7W1 - Navy Experimental 18-Shi Otsu Type Interceptor "Shinden" 1 seat built by Kyushu (W) J8M1 - Navy Experimental 19-Shi rocket-powered Interceptor "Shusui" 1 seat by Mistubishi (M)

So, following this pattern, the next one would be:

J9N1 - Navy Experimental 19-Shi jet-powered Attack(?) "Kikka" 1 seat built by Nakajima (N)

In the case of the J2M1, J7W1 and J8M1 these were expanded to include:

J2M7 - Navy Interceptor "Raiden" version 7 built by Mitsubishi (M) J7W2 - Navy Experimental 18-Shi version 2 jet-powered Interceptor "Shinden" by Kyushu (W) J8M2 - Navy Experimental 19-Shi rocket-powered Interceptor version 2 "Shusui" by Mistubishi (M)

This could create the following possible dervatives for the Kikka:

J9N1 - Navy Experimental 19-Shi jet-powered Attack(?) "Kikka" 1 seat by Nakajima (N) J9N2 - Navy Experimental 19-Shi jet-powered Interceptor "Kikka" 1 seat by Nakajima (N) J9N3 - Navy Experimental 19-Shi jet-powered catapult Interceptor “Kikka” 1 seat by Nakajima (N) G11N1- Navy Experimental 19-Shi jet-powered Bomber “Kikka” 1 seat by Nakajima (N) R3N1 - Navy Experimental 19-Shi jet-powered Reconnaissance "Kikka" 2 seats by Nakajima (N) K12N1- Navy Experimental 19-Shi jet-powered Trainer "Kikka" 2 seats by Nakajima (N)

Of course the Kikka had no number, but these are all derived from the book referenced before: "Japanese Aircraft of the Pacific War" by Rene J Francillon. Zandovise (talk) 06:49, 12 September 2009 (UTC)Zandovise —Preceding unsigned comment added by Zandovise (talk • contribs) 06:45, 12 September 2009 (UTC) Zandovise (talk) 04:51, 13 September 2009 (UTC)ZandoviseZandovise (talk) 05:30, 13 September 2009 (UTC)ZandoviseZandovise (talk) 05:36, 13 September 2009 (UTC)

J8N1 is INCORRECT for photograph and title J8 refers to the Mistubishi "Shusui" aircraft. Please get with the program! ZandoviseZandovise (talk) 18:22, 2 March 2015 (UTC)

So where did "J9Y" come from? Even with the mistaken belief that the Kikka had been given an alphanumerical designation, the fact that it was made by Nakajima and not Yokosuka makes the "Y" rather inexplicable. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.98.198.84 (talk) 21:03, 29 May 2015 (UTC)

I have contacted the Smithsonian National Air and Space Museum concerning the designation for this aircraft. I received a reply concerning its designation from Brian Kicklas, Acting Archives Reverence Team Leader. Following is the reply:

Thank you for your email of the 19th requesting information on the Nakajima Kikka aircraft.

The most thorough English-language treatments on this aircraft, one by Robert Mikesh the other by Rene Francillon, do not mention the Kikka as designated at all. The captured German-Japanese Technical Document collection on microfilm held by this museum makes no mention of a J9Y, only of the Kikka, again without designation.

Mikesh states that "one early historian of Japanese aircraft coined the J9Y1 designation of Kikka, to the point that other writers have expanded its use... However, there is no Japanese documentation, nor is there strong feeling among aviation historians in Japan that this assignment was ever made... Kikka, like several other late war Japanese airplanes, though given names, were conspicuous in not having a type designation assigned."

I hope this is of help. Thanks for your interest in the National Air and Space Museum.

I believe this settles the matter concerning the Kikka, and its lack of designation.

Buster40004 Talk 20:00, 9 April 2016 (UTC)

Engines for fighter version

Ne-130 and Ne-330 were not upgraded version of Ne-20. They were larger engines than Ne-20, and they were for Ki-201 Karyu, not for J9Y Kikka. Upgraded version of Ne-20 was known as Ne-20-Kai or Ne-120. Sources:

• Ishizawa, Kazuhiko. "KIKKA": The Technological Verification of the First Japanese Jet Engine Ne 20. Tokyo: Miki Press, 2006. ISBN 4-89522-468-6.
• 別冊航空情報編集部. 航空秘話復刻版シリーズ (2): 知られざる軍用機開発(下). Tokyo: Kantosha, 1999. ISBN 4-87357-051-4.
• 歴史群像編集部. [歴史群像] 太平洋戦史シリーズ Vol.56: 大戦末期 航空決戦兵器, 橘花、火龍、秋水、キ74……幻のつばさ(2). Tokyo: Gakken, 2006. ISBN 4-05-604536-4.

--125.30.80.161 (talk) 13:09, 13 October 2008 (UTC)

Me 262 does not have "swept" wings.

The Me 262 is an entirely conventional aircraft, aerodynamically. Its wings have a very slight sweepback angle, but it is nowhere near enough to qualify them as "swept" wings, or to convey any sort of aerodynamic benefit such as achieved by the later MiG-15 or F-86. A C-47 also has sweepback angle on its wings, yet most people would not describe that as "swept" wings. So does a Sunderland, and a Texan. The Me 262 has sweepback on both leading and trailing edges, but the overall sweep angle is not significantly greater than any of those aircraft. The proper way to put it is that the "Kikka had conventional wings, lacking any sweepback angle, unlike the Me 262". that language doesn't imply that the Me 262 is a "swept wing fighter" (as far as I can remember, the only reason the Me 262 even has that feature is that it was the easiest way to adjust a COG issue...just like the story with the Sunderland).

64.222.158.24 (talk) 07:57, 29 October 2018 (UTC)