Talk:National Portrait Gallery, London

Legal action against Wikipedia

See: Legal threat against Wikipedia User --Eingangskontrolle (talk) 09:58, 14 July 2009 (UTC)

The recent dispute with Wikipedia is completely unimportant in the gallery's 153 year history. I removed the section from the article and put it below:

On 10 July 2009, the National Portrait Gallery started legal proceedings for breach of copyright against Wikipedia editor David Coetzee. The dispute centres on whether digital photographs of public domain artworks are protected by copyright. The National Portrait Gallery made low-resolution images of public domain original portraits available to all, but only allowed users to see a section of each image of their choice in high resolution at any time. Coetzee circumvented this software and downloaded thousands of high-resolution reproductions of images from the NPG website, and placed them in an archive of free-to-use images on Wikimedia Commons. The NPG claim that this will deprive them of significant revenue and that these images are part of a £1million project to digitise the gallery's collection.

--Apoc2400 (talk) 22:04, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

Now maybe, but the mainstream news are starting to pick up on this now. It may yet develop. ninety:one 22:17, 17 July 2009 (UTC)

I added an external link to the Wikinews story, should be enough. -- œ^™ 02:30, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

The story is a headline on BBC Radio 4 news. Wikipedia can't just sweep something embarrassing under the carpet. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 06:23, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

Why is this embarrassing to wikipedia? If anything it's only embarrassing to the NPG. Deacon of Pndapetzim (Talk) 07:25, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if the mainstream media picks up on it, this is still an insignificant event in the history of the NPG. This navel-gazing does not below here, regardless of who it reflects good or bad on. --Apoc2400 (talk) 07:38, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Apoc2400 and OlEnglish. I have removed the section and ask Nunquam Dormio to seek consensus here first before re-adding it a fourth time. Also, please do not call good-faith edits vandalism.

Editors wishing to describe this incident in the article should be prepared to explain why "Wikipedia played a major role in the subject of the article" (to borrow language from WP:WAWI). See also WP:UNDUE ("An article should not give undue weight to any aspects of the subject, but should strive to treat each aspect with a weight appropriate to its significance to the subject").

Mentioning the incident might be more justifiable as part of describing a hypothetical general attitude of the NPG with respect to copyright (as hinted at by Cory Doctorow in 2007), but that would need more sources.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 11:52, 18 July 2009 (UTC)

P.S.: This comment by an anonymous academic publisher confirms Doctorow's observations from a different angle, characterizing the NPG as the most restrictive of British museums and galleries (comparing it to the British Museum and the Victoria and Albert Museum as examples).

As an anonymous blog comment, it does not qualify as a reliable source, but it seems to indicate that searching for reliable sources documenting such a long-standing attitude of the NPG could be worthwhile. According to today's Independent, "leading art critic Brian Sewell" called the legal action by the NPG against Wikipedia "another example of their folly", apparently referring to comparable previous incidents. Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

It seems to me utterly perverse that a significant news story that has been picked up by mainstream organisations such as the BBC and the Independent gets no mention in the article on the organisation that began the current flurry. A short, factual and well referenced mention of the incident seems to me to be completely justified. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 07:49, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

How often during the last one and a half centuries has there been news coverage of the NPG by "mainstream organisations"? Why single out the coverage of this incident? That is the question that needs to be answered here, and the answer cannot be "because it is the one that directly relates to us as Wikipedians". Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

If the NPG does what it says it is going to do, the courts will need to provide a significant clarification of UK copyright law as it applies to the reproduction of images of works that are themselves out of copyright. The fact that Wikipedia is involved is of only minor significance. Wikipedia users will come to this article (as I did), expecting some information. Rjm at sleepers (talk) 10:43, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Well, if the incident leads to such a clarification that would admittedly be a valid reason, but at the moment it is just informed speculation. (Talks are ongoing between the NPG and Wikimedia to resolve the matter without a court case.)

There is already some information for those Wikipedia readers in form of the Wikinews link. (By the way, there is also a lot of coverage in this week's edition of the Wikipedia Signpost, which is an entirely appropriate place for Wikipedians to read and write about the incident.)

Regards, HaeB (talk) 12:18, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

How about using the first 2 sentences from the material that was removed ie "On 10 July 2009, the National Portrait Gallery started legal proceedings for breach of copyright against Wikipedia editor David Coetzee. The dispute centres on whether digital photographs of public domain artworks are protected by copyright." together with appropriate references? Rjm at sleepers (talk) 07:58, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I agree with Rjm. Failure to mention the incident may give the impression of censorship, and it can be removed later.--Charles (talk) 08:42, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

If it is not of long-term relevance, it should not be included here to begin with. See WP:NOTNEWS. Regards, HaeB (talk) 10:15, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

Agree with HaeB. See Wikipedia:Recentism. -- œ^™ 19:02, 19 July 2009 (UTC)

I think this is significant, the news coverage certainly is. The removal of the material smacks of censorship. As it is related to the finances of the NPG I have added something there.--ZincBelief (talk) 00:46, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

This is not censorship, once again read WP:Recentism. It may be significant right now but in a few years from now i'm willing to bet noone (apart from Wikipedia editors) will remember this, and it will most likely be edited out as irrelevant to the overall history of the gallery. Are we going to include commentary everytime the NPG shows up in the news? The event and news coverage is recent and the wikinews link is enough and even the wikinews link will be removed once the hype over this dies down. It is much more significant to Wikipedia's history rather than the Gallery's history anyway. Remember that our duty is to the readers not other Wikipedia editors, right now the readers will want to know about this news item and that's why the wikinews link is there. -- œ^™ 00:58, 20 July 2009 (UTC)

I would suggest that the prospect of this becoming a landmark copyright case is hardly "completely unimportant in the gallery's 153 year history". And that is just going on the media context, before even citing the words from the NPG themselves such that they believe a fundemental part of their mission, the digitisation project, is under threat from Commons. This is hardly trivial news, it certainly rates acknowledgement, and wp:recentism does not call for the removal of information just because the rest of the article is lacking. MickMacNee (talk) 01:13, 21 July 2009 (UTC)

15 months later, it is quite clear that the "landmark copyright case" speculation that was a main argument for the inclusion has not become true.

As for the question of whether the incident could at least be considered a landmark in the gallery's 154 year history instead, it is instructive to see how low last year's news story ranks news coverage from just the last seven years of the NPG in the Google News archive "sorted by relevance".

For us as Wikipedians, the incident is of course a notable one, and it was fully justified to covered it in the Signpost for an audience of Wikipedias. Mainspace articles are written for a general audience, though.

And I know that in a time where a lot of public funds are being rearranged in the UK, many might find it tempting to keep the incident prominently in the article to remind politicians and potential donors of the fact that this is an institution who reduces the public impact of funds and donations compared to other museums and galleries who have a less restrictive attitude. But that motive would not be consistent with WP:NPOV.

Regards, HaeB (talk) 13:09, 2 November 2010 (UTC)

I've only recently become aware of this issue. I don't think the current inclusion gives undue weight to the event. It's encyclopedic information. Any potential NPOV issues could be dealt with by expanding other sections, for example maybe "Finances and staff" could include grants offered (if such schemes exist). -- Trevj (talk) 11:01, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Given that it is now clear the dispute is going nowhere and its pursuit has been dropped (which the NPG have said informally), I think we give it too much prominence, and could just have a "see also" link to the article. But then no doubt we would be accused of brushing it under the carpet. Johnbod (talk) 12:53, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

It's a two-sentence summary, so IMO isn't too prominent here. I admit that it's rather wordy though. -- Trevj (talk) 13:30, 15 March 2012 (UTC)

Merge proposal to bring National Portrait Gallery copyright conflicts here

The following is a closed discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the proposal was to not merge the two articles. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 16:52, 26 August 2009 (UTC)

---

The AfD mentioned in the above section closed as "no consensus". That's often a sign that a merge is in order. Accordingly I propose a merge of National Portrait Gallery copyright conflicts to this article (National Portrait Gallery (London). The matter seems like it should be here rather than in a separate article. ++Lar: t/c 00:49, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

Shouldn't your merger proposal then be on Talk:National Portrait Gallery copyright conflicts? Nunquam Dormio (talk) 11:09, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

I don't think so, no. See Wikipedia:Merging_and_moving_pages#Proposing_a_merger where it says Create one discussion section, typically on the destination article's Talk page (which is this page). But it doesn't matter where it's discussed exactly, so long as both the source and destination article merge templates point here (which I believe they do) so that interested parties can find the discussion. ++Lar: t/c 21:15, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Oppose. Let's not compound one mistake with another. MickMacNee (talk) 01:39, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • Could you elaborate please, not following you. Which mistakes? Thanks. ++Lar: t/c 02:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
    • The decision that National Portrait Gallery copyright conflicts is an encyclopoedic topic in any way shape or form. MickMacNee (talk) 11:22, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose. It's interesting, but most importantly it's notable and would WP:UNDUE there, but is fine for NPOV here. - Peregrine Fisher (talk) (contribs) 01:58, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • I may have confused matters by using a bad title, I am suggesting that "National Portrait Gallery copyright conflicts" be merged here as this is the main article. ++Lar: t/c 02:21, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose - In the context of the National Portrait Gallery (London), the National Portrait Gallery copyright conflicts hardly merits more than a sentence or three, and this is insufficient reason, at this time, to extinguish the "copyright conflicts" article. Certainly mention of the issue should be made in some article that describes the difficulties of public domain, copyright, and international conflict of laws. Some content merits inclusion at Bridgeman Art Library v. Corel Corp., the United States Federal District Court case that reviewed both US and UK copyright law in rendering the decision, and that the NPG specifically cites in the letter, if only to clearly state that the NPG intended to notrely on it. -- Yellowdesk (talk) 02:07, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• A bit here, yes, and a bit at History of Wikipedia#Controversies would likely be best. The issue, as it stands, is not terribly important, as no actual lawsuit has been filed yet, and just a few sentences at each location should be fine. I'm unsure which merge target the article should be redirected to, however. Cheers, everyone. lifebaka++ 02:16, 4 August 2009 (UTC) Clearly I can read; part stricken per below. lifebaka++ 02:24, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose merging it here (it's already mentioned), Support merging to History of Wikipedia#Controversies. -- œ^™ 02:23, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • If it's already mentioned, that's already a merge. :) But I'm thinking the way Lifebaka does, some of it indeed needs to go to History of Wikipedia#Controversies. 02:26, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• oppose Have more than enough well-sourced content so that merging here is not reasonable. Merging to History of Wikipedia is likewise not advisable since we could not reasonably fit in the content in a useful fashion. JoshuaZ (talk) 02:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• Oppose, way too much. ViperSnake151  Talk  02:30, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

• Support - Very little of the page is usuable as a page (lots of OR and the rest), so what is usable can easily be merged. Ottava Rima (talk) 03:10, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
• Strong oppose We had a tedious debate about deleting that article. See Wikipedia:Articles for deletion/National Portrait Gallery copyright conflicts. There was no consensus to delete. This proposal is merely to achieve the same result by a 'merge'. The section on the copyright dispute in the NPG (London) article is already an appropriate length and doesn't need to be any longer. Nunquam Dormio (talk) 08:04, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
  • A merge is not a delete, it's a keep. While there wasn't a consensus to delete, there also wasn't a consensus to keep... the AfD closed "no consensus"... that's often (but not always) a suggestion that perhaps a merge is in order. So I offered it up. I hope that helps clear matters up. ++Lar: t/c 21:11, 4 August 2009 (UTC)
    • Lar, you ran into the classic problem - AfD allows for a wide audience that helps bypass a niche few that may try to force consensus. An obscure talk page would not do the same. You probably should have held the discussion on the AN page as it was a neutral area that would have been hard to game. Ottava Rima (talk) 22:27, 4 August 2009 (UTC)

This proposal has had a week now, with no entries beyond the first day and little support so I've removed the tags.—Preceding unsigned comment added by Nunquam Dormio (talk • contribs) 08:21, August 11, 2009

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.

Where Wikipedia became a knave

It is slightly erroneous to connect the sweating and labour involved in hard labour with the PhotoCopying.

There is a contention seen on this site under the heading: Where Wikipedia became a knave on this topic. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 117.201.253.169 (talk) 10:28, 21 December 2015 (UTC)

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Proposed closure

When should there be a mention of the proposed closure for refurbishment included? Jackiespeel (talk) 11:33, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

Added. Johnbod (talk) 17:38, 13 November 2019 (UTC)

'As a generalisation' given the frequency of delays and changes with such major changes announced somewhat in advance have to consider how long a lead-in is appropriate. Jackiespeel (talk) 12:05, 18 November 2019 (UTC)

They just announced the details, some 6 months ahead. This seems reasonable, as does a certain scepticism on the re-opening date. Johnbod (talk) 17:23, 18 November 2019 (UTC)