Talk:Nguyễn Trãi
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Requested move
edit- The following discussion is an archived discussion of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
The result of the proposal was moved. --BDD (talk) 16:11, 15 August 2013 (UTC)
- Nguyen Trai → Nguyễn Trãi
- Nguyen Truong To → Nguyễn Trường Tộ
- Nguyen Du → Nguyễn Du
- Nguyen Cong Tru → Nguyễn Công Trứ
– Restore undiscussed moves, misuse of db6 template, redirect locks example. Confucian scholar, Catholic mandarin, epic poet, Confucian poet, per academic sources in English. Also per last year's RfC majority and recent RMs. NOTE: Nguyen Truong To and Nguyen Du are ambiguous in English (with Nguyễn Dữ ghost story writer, Nguyễn Trường Tô politician), but it is not proposed to create dab pages as hatnotes already cover the much less notable articles In ictu oculi (talk) 01:37, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Proposer: It was noted on the current RM and to restore Talk:Nguyễn Dynasty that Google OCR doesn't always pick up Vietnamese fonts see index page Vietnam: State, War, and Revolution (1945-1946). The reason I'm picking David G. Marr's new 2013 book is deliberate, it shows how publishing is catching up with the 2005-2007 adoption of diacritics on en.wp articles. Marr's previous books either omitted diacritics (or in at least one book the publisher allowed Marr to write them in by hand). Similarly Tucker's Encyclopedia of the Vietnam War has diacritics in the UK Oxford hardback edition, and none in the US paperback edition. So per WP:RS "sources reliable for the statement being made" we should be following best practice of recent hardback English reliable sources. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:02, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Comment The page moves appear to have been conducted a full two years ago and subsequent edits on each article after the fact, and a lack of any demonstration of dispute on each talk page, appear to indicate that they were uncontroversial at the time. Consequently, It's unfair to characterize these as WP:BADFAITH moves or improperly executed. I would hope that comment is struck.--Labattblueboy (talk) 06:06, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Maybe, I was in two minds as to whether to mention it or not, and didn't on the original template post, as I think this RM stands on its own merits, however that might be wishful thinking on my part, given the convoluted history of the WP Vietnam titles. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Oppose Nguyen Cong Tru, Light Oppose Nguyen Trai and Neutral: Nguyen Truong To and Nguyen Du. There is no indications that the diacritic version Nguyen Trai or Nguyen Cong Tru is the most common. My google book search of Nguyen Trai was limited to sources post-2000 and I demonstrates a clear leaning towards non-diacritic so I see no reason to move. That being said, both are used and WP:DIACRITICS permits either and I believe WP:VIETNAM topic users are moving towards a consensus that includes diacritics.
- To counter the OCR issue I open each one. Here is what sources lead me to this conclusion:
- Daicritic version of Nguyen Trai
- Postcolonial Vietnam: New Histories of the National Past (2002)
- Beyond the Court Gate: Selected Poems of Nguyen Trai (2010)
- State, Society and the Market in Contemporary Vietnam: Property, Power and ... (2012)
- Saigon: A History (2011)
- Cold War Literature: Writing the Global Conflict (2006)
- Women's Bodies Women's Worries (2012)
- A Brief Chronology of Vietnam's History (2000)
- A Dragon Child: Reflections of a Daughter of Annam in America (2004)
- Education as a Political Tool in Asia (2010)
- Origines: the streets of Vietnam : a historical companion (2001)
- Renowned Vietnamese intellectuals prior to the 20th century (2004)
- International Workshop on Nhã Nhạc of Nguyễn Dynasty (2004)
- Vietnamese feminist poems from antiquity to the present (2007)
- Phố cổ Hà Nội (translation) (2004)
- Saigon to San Diego: Memoir of a Boy who Escaped from Communist Vietnam (2004)
- Soldered states: nation-building in Germany and Vietnam (2010)
- Non-diacritic version of Nguyen Trai
- Beyond the Court Gate: Selected Poems of Nguyen Trai (2010)
- The Best American Poetry 2011: Series Editor David Lehman (2011)
- East Asia: A New History (2012)
- The Columbia History of Chinese Literature (2012)
- Night, Again: Contemporary Fiction from Vietnam (2011)
- The Country of Memory: Remaking the Past in Late Socialist Vietnam (2004)
- Imagined Ancestries of Vietnamese Communism (2001)
- A History of the Vietnamese (2013)
- Culture and Customs of Vietnam (2001)
- The History of Buddhism in Vietnam (2008)
- Fodor's See It Vietnam (2012)
- The Perfect War: Technowar in Vietnam (2007)
- Sources of Vietnamese Tradition (2012)
- Columbia Chronologies of Asian History and Culture (2000)
- Ruptured Histories: War, Memory, and the Post-Cold War in Asia (2007)
- China and Vietnam: The Politics of Asymmetry (2006)
- On The Borders of State Power: Frontiers in the Greater Mekong Sub-Region (2008)
- A Companion to the History of the Book (2009)
- Vietnam and the West: New Approaches (2010) Note: uses diacritic but not in ref to Nguyen Trai
- Victory At Any Cost (2005)
- New American Writing, Issue 24 (2006)
- Ho Chi Minh: A Life (2012)
- Viet Nam Social Sciences , Issues 4-6 (2007)
- Vietnam War, Volume 1 (2010)
- The Colonial Bastille: A History of Imprisonment in Vietnam, 1862-1940 (2001)
- East Asia Before the West: Five Centuries of Trade and Tribute (2010)
- Thirty years after: new essays on Vietnam war literature, film, and art (2009)
- Pre-communist Indochina (2009)
-
- This is very thorough and accurate. I can only see one, Wynn Wilcox Vietnam and the West: New Approaches 2010, for example Page 109 "Nguyễn Trãi, took to the forests, where Nguyễn Trãi used the leaves of trees literally as propaganda “leaflets” ..." where I think your search caught a deliberately Englished translation of a Vietnamese paper in the footnotes. Otherwise very thorough and balanced, thank you. In ictu oculi (talk) 07:11, 4 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support. Diacritics are by and large a style issue, and the house rules should be followed. Careful analysis, above, by Labattblueboy, shows that (relatively limited) usage is divided in English, and presumably sources that do not use diacritics otherwise do not use them for these persons either, and vice versa (an exception for Vietnam and the West duly noted). Except where the English usage dominantly dictates otherwise, style for other Vietnamese articles (that is, diacritics included) should be followed. No such user (talk) 10:13, 6 August 2013 (UTC)
- Support per User:No such user's comment above. The subjects listed above are notable for activities in Vietnam and, strictly speaking, do not have "English" names. There are some sources that can't type diacritics or have style manuals that prohibit diacritics. Wikipedia does not and, for those readers alarmed by unusual typography, the diacritics can be "read through". i.e., those unfamiliar with them can ignore the tildes et al. Wikipedia is an online, Unicode-based reference work that need not reflect archaic typographical limitations. — AjaxSmack 01:44, 10 August 2013 (UTC)
Oppose. The purpose of a title is to tell the reader the common English-language name of a subject. It's misleading to put on marks that hardly any source uses. Amazon's top-selling Nguyen Trai book is [http://www.amazon.com/Beyond-Court-Gate-Selected-Nguyen/dp/193399617X/ref=sr_1_2?s=books&ie=UTC Beyond the Court Gate: Selected Poems of Nguyen Trai]. Britannica has an entry on Nguyen Du. See also Viet Nam News and Thanh Nien. LostFederation (talk) 11:49, 10 August 2013 (UTC)Sockpuppet
- As this has reached backlog (1) note that User:LostFederation above is confirmed by Checkuser as sockpuppet, (2) note RM Talk:Nguyễn Dynasty. In ictu oculi (talk) 05:53, 12 August 2013 (UTC)
- The above discussion is preserved as an archive of the proposal. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page. No further edits should be made to this section.
Sources
editMost Vietnamese in the Hanoi area supported Ming rule, it was the semi barbarian "Trai" or "camp" people in Thanh hoa who supported Le Loi's rebellion. Nguyen Trai stood as the exception, being one of the few from Hanoi who supported the rebellion, while his fellow Vietnamese in Hanoi supported the Ming
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA210#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA177#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA182#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA191#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA186#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA5#v=onepage&q&f=false
http://books.google.com/books?id=P2HP31kOSA4C&pg=PA113#v=onepage&q&f=false
North and South in Binh Ngo Dai Cao might have referred to internal divisions in Vietnam (Hanoi vs Thanh Hoa) rather than China vs Vietnam
Some Chinese stayed in Vietnam after Le Loi's revolt and even formed a unit in the Le Dai Viet army. Le Loi was a Muong and many of his followers were also non-Vietnamese ethnic minorities.
Pages 83-103
Page 95-96