Talk:Nifflas

Suggested Renaming

I suggest that this page be renamed "Nicklas Nygren" with the term "Nifflas" redirecting here. Thibbs 19:58, 5 June 2007 (UTC)

Done. JIP | Talk 12:29, 7 September 2007 (UTC)

Isn't it the norm to use the name by which the person is known instead of his real name? E.g. Tiger Woods or Prince (musician). Nifflas gives 10 times the amount of hits in Google as "Nicklas Nygren" and his main site doesn't seem to even mention his real name anywhere. I would suggest changing the article name back to Nifflas. --Matonen (talk) 16:12, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

I'm not sure that's necessary. "Nifflas" redirects here so it's unlikely to create any confusion for readers. Although Nifflas is a more popular reference, most reliable third-party references actually discuss him as Mr. Nygren. -Thibbs (talk) 16:56, 30 October 2009 (UTC)

Note on Notability

The guidelines seem to require "significant coverage" in "reliable sources" that are "independent of the subject".

Reliable sources:

There are published interviews (they are published to the same extent that a "widely recognized internet FAQ document" as described in the notability essay: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/User:Uncle_G/On_notability) in several websites including www.joystiq.com, www.ctgmusic.com, and www.planetfreeplay.com. There are also developer bios and extensive articles on Nygren or his games on such websites as www.gamespot.com and www.rfgeneration.com. Further coverage on Nifflas can be found at www.tigsource.com, www.acid-play.com, jayisgames.com, and indygamer.wordpress.com. These are merely a sample of the better known "websites of note".

Significant coverage:

Although the google test is not really a valid meter for notability, I think it provides a certain degree of collateral evidence. As of Sep. 2007, a search for "nifflas" yields 140,000 hits and a search for knytt yields 556,000...

Independence from subject:

None of the "big name" websites have any dependent connection to Nicklas Nygren in any way. Nygren distributes his games freely online so there can be no financial connections to undermine independent coverage, interviewers have all sought *him* out rather than he publicizing himself, and in general the plethora of sites devoted to him are created by fans who have learned of his work through sources of internet media which have recognized this emergent independent developer in their publications.

I vote to remove the non-notability tag. Thibbs 19:06, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

Please do explain your reasoning for adding the non-notability tag. 64.5.15.136 22:34, 20 September 2007 (UTC)

He was interviewed in the current issue of Games for Windows, and Knytt Stories was featured in the freeplay article in the magazine as well. 23:54, 29 October 2007 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 72.204.84.1 (talk)

Less-notable games

I've condensed all of Nifflas's games created prior to Within a Deep Forest into a single paragraph at the bottom of the Games section. None of these games has had any sort of significant coverage, and none return more than 600 Google results (whereas Within a Deep Forest returns about 14,000 results, and Knytt Stories returns about 28,000). As it was, they were taking up quite a bit of space, and appeared to be much more important than they are. Googoogjoob (talk) 05:07, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

For chronology reasons, what would you think about the idea of moving the new "other games" subsection to just above "Within a Deep Forest"? -Thibbs (talk) 05:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I think it'd look weird to have the "other" games listed before the "main" games, but if that part were re-done to not use another word in place of "other", it'd work fine. Googoogjoob (talk) 19:28, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

OK I'll change it to "Early games" and shift it. -Thibbs (talk) 20:24, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Y Done. I also re-added the names of a few games that had been deleted yesterday. I think the existence of the games is lent notability by the notability of the designer, but I agree the games probably do not need full descriptions so I have not replaced those. I also added some refs for the games. I did the same thing for the non-soundtrack albums: I re-inserted their names simply. I don't think that clutters the article up too much. -Thibbs (talk) 20:54, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

I just re-added an image to demonstrate the "Early games" section. There was plenty of space for it (the total length was not increased at all) and it seemed a pity to waste the upload. I'll try to hold off on re-adding anything more. I'm not a huge fan of deletionism in general, but the axing of some of the material probably tightens the article up some. -Thibbs (talk) 21:02, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Excellent. As it had been before yesterday, it felt terribly bloated- like an annotated list of the files on the UnOfficial Nifflas Game Page. Googoogjoob (talk) 21:45, 17 December 2008 (UTC)

Significant reliable third-party coverage

I'm contesting the prod-tag as patently ridiculous. Googling "Nifflas" gets 187,000 hits. Googling "Nicklas Nygren" gets 12,700. I think that confirms roughly how popularly referenced the guy is.

These are a few of the reliable third-party sources I was able to find after literally 15 seconds of Google searching:

• http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2009/03/road_to_the_igf_nicalis_duo_ta.php
• http://www.gamekult.com/articles/A0000079676
• http://nintendo.joystiq.com/tag/nifflas
• http://wii.ign.com/articles/100/1009860p1.html
• http://www.gamespot.com/pc/adventure/withinadeepforest/index.html
• http://www.gamasutra.com/php-bin/news_index.php?story=22606

I'd suggest using {{refimprove}} if anything. -Thibbs (talk) 06:11, 21 September 2009 (UTC)

Joystiq isn't a WP:RS since it's a self-published blog, and some of these are trivial sources, such as the GameSpot page for WADF. The IGF interview is duplicated in two of your links and is a primary, not secondary source since it's an interview (I think). Regardless, we really don't have a case for substantial coverage. Nonetheless I'll accept that you are contesting the prod based on the possible notability though I can unequivocally say that "patently ridiculous" doesn't describe this. I'll put the article up for AFD instead. Andre (talk) 06:53, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry about the duplicated articles. I wasn't trying to mislead anyone, this was literally just my first 15 seconds worth of searching. Anyway, it's possible that what you say is true regarding the substantiality of the coverage of Nicklas Nygren as a person apart from his games. That is to say, when we limit ourselves to reliable sources, he is only discussed in relation to his video games. Considering that he is a video game designer this may not be too surprising. After all, even the amount of coverage given to Shigeru Miyamoto as a person is negligible when compared to the coverage of him in relation to the games he has created.

This article on Nicklas Nygren mainly discusses his games, several of which have been the subject of substantial and verifiable RS coverage. A few articles have in fact been created on Wikipedia in the past specifically on his games. I recall articles on both Within a Deep Forest as well as Knytt. Both of these have since been redirected to the article on Nygren. You may recall your involvement with the 2006 deletion of the article on Nygren's game, Within a Deep Forest. I'm not sure if you're aware that the article was granted Deletion Review in 2007 and the result was a consensus to redirect to "Nicklas Nygren". If we delete the article it was redirected to then we're undermining the consensus obtained in this review.

From the perspective of administrative economy (or we could say from a pragmatic perspective), it makes sense to retain this article as a catch-all for the works of this author which have repeatedly been created by third parties and which will doubtless be created again if this article is deleted. While in isolation there may not be a great-enough level of specific coverage to satisfy you as far as substantiality is concerned, surely you must concede that when taken in the entirety, the works of this game designer have been covered to an extent that would meet the threshold for inclusion on Wikipedia.

If you really refuse to compromise then I suppose I will have to argue my case before AFD, however I would urge you not to file with this group as it is notoriously geared toward deletion. The presumption at AFD, for better or for worse, is that the article should be deleted. Why else would an administrator nominate it, right? Surely the administrator knows more about what is appropriate than a lowly editor. I think it would be a shame if this article were deleted given the clear popularity of its subject's references (see Google test above), the fairly respectable reliable coverage the topic has been the subject of, and the high likelihood that this will result in more administrative action down the road.

Thanks for considering my arguments. -Thibbs (talk) 16:49, 5 October 2009 (UTC) (striking "patently ridiculous" -Thibbs (talk) 17:02, 5 October 2009 (UTC))

PS - Just in the way of buttressing my claims that more related RSes are readily available, I offer the following:

• http://kotaku.com/388133/nifflas-releases-knytt-nano-minigames
• http://www.crispygamer.com/columns/2008-07-08/games-for-lunch-knytt-stories.aspx
• http://www.avclub.com/articles/knytt-and-knytt-stories,7522
• http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2009/04/interview_night_game_nicalis.html
• http://www.indiegames.com/blog/2008/03/nifflas_new_game_skyming.html
• http://www.igf.com/php-bin/entry2009.php?id=627
• http://www.gametunnel.com/2007-top-10-independent-games-of-the-year-article.php

I haven't yet conducted a thorough search for RSes, but given how easy it was to find these I am almost certain that more exist. I do know that one of his games featured at E3 2009, so there is bound to be coverage of it somewhere. -Thibbs (talk) 17:44, 5 October 2009 (UTC)

dates

a timeline for these releases would be pretty useful. (i am not going to username/date this comment please ignore the irony) —Preceding unsigned comment added by 65.95.239.148 (talk) 13:58, 26 February 2010 (UTC)

Link to Wikia

Anything wrong with adding an external link to the wikia dedicated to this developer's games? Keeps getting reverted.. KnyttKnight (talk) 05:46, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

The link runs afoul of WP:ELNO #12: "Open wikis, except those with a substantial history of stability and a substantial number of editors." —C.Fred (talk) 05:48, 30 December 2014 (UTC)

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Requested move 7 June 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Unopposed uncontroversial move. (closed by non-admin page mover) Polyamorph (talk) 19:40, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

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Nicklas Nygren → Nifflas – Widely known handle in reliable sources, and he still publishes games under that handle rather than his real name. Falls under WP:PSEUDONYM policy. ᴢxᴄᴠʙɴᴍ (ᴛ) 01:38, 7 June 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.