Talk:Norman Hunter (footballer)/GA1

GA Review

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Nominator: PearlyGigs (talk · contribs) 11:15, 23 June 2024 (UTC)

Reviewer: Mike Christie (talk · contribs) 11:41, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

I'll review this. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 11:41, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Starting with sources.

• What makes the following reliable sources? I'm not saying these are not reliable, just that I need to see more evidence that they meet our definition of reliable sources.
• englandfootballonline.com -- seems to be the work of two fans.
• fa-cupfinals.co.uk -- I can't tell anything about them but they say they are not any kind of official site.
• mightyleeds.co.uk -- seems to be the work of one fan
• englandstats.com -- I see this is listed at Wikipedia:WikiProject Football/Links and I will post at WT:FOOTY to ask about it.
• englandmemories.com -- looks like a Vietnamese betting site
• englishfootballstats.com -- can't find out anything about them

Once these are resolved I'll do some spotchecks. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library)

Hi, Mike Christie. Thanks for taking on the review. Some of these sites were used before I began editing the article so I really should have checked them out myself. I'm a bit pushed for time at the moment but I'll try and look at them over the weekend. Best wishes. PearlyGigs (talk) 18:48, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

No hurry; will keep an eye on this page. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:01, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Also, see this, which gives an alternative for one of the above. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 19:03, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. Thanks for making that enquiry. As there's another citation for the Spain match, I've removed the englandstats one which I'm also unsure about. I've replaced the citations from sources 1, 5 and 6 above. I think sources 2 and 3 might be okay because they are used across a wide range of articles including some that are WP:GA. Even so, I've found additional sources for both statements. Could you please look at the revised citations and see what you think? All the best. PearlyGigs (talk) 22:10, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

The new sources look fine. I've struck three of the ones above; it looks like you're still using the first three. If the other sources do cover the material, there's no need to continue to use the original sources. E.g. I can't see the Liverpool Daily Post story, but I can find other newspaper reports that would cite the 1965 FA Cup Final, so I don't think you still need the original source there. If for some reason you do want to keep any of those sources we can ask at WT:FOOTY or if you can dig up more information about them that could work too. Do you have access to old newspaper archives? If not, I can help look up some of the old material for you. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:39, 28 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. I've written to FOOTY about the top three sites to see what they think. Personally, I'd rather not use the two insecure ones but fa-cupfinals.co.uk is cited by over 150 articles including some that are GA. I do have access to the newspapers, thanks, via the WP library. I'll try and find some more sources and come back later today. Thanks again. PearlyGigs (talk) 07:54, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, we seem to have a clear consensus that fa-cupfinals.co.uk is one to avoid, but the other two are okay. "Mighty Leeds" is respected because its creator is author Dave Tomlinson is, to all intents and purposes, an SME. As it happens, I'd already taken EFO out of Norman's article but no matter. I'll remove FACF but, as long as it's okay by you, I'll retain Mighty Leeds. Thanks again. PearlyGigs (talk) 11:50, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

That works for me. Are you planning to take this article to FAC, by the way? If so, I think those sources will get a bit more scrutiny, but I think they're good enough for GA. I'll carry on with the review now you've replaced the fa-cupfinals.co.uk citation. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:18, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

All three images come from Anefo, and I see from here that they are CC 1.0, so those are fine. Earwig finds no issues. Spotchecks -- footnotes refer to this version:

• FN 25 cites "Although they were newly promoted, Leeds had an exceptional season in 1964–65 and performed a "runners-up double" by finishing second in the league to Manchester United on goal average". Technically the source only covers the last half of this sentence; I wouldn't regard this as a real verification failure, but since bits of text get moved around I would suggest adding a source to cover the promotion, or the fact that they were in the Second Division the previous year.
• FNs 38 & 39 cite "Hunter was a key player for Leeds as they won the Football League Cup and the Inter-Cities Fairs Cup in 1968; and the League Championship in 1969." I don't see the dates for these given in the sources.
• FN 42 cites "At the end of the game, Hunter climbed the steps to the Royal box twice; once to collect his own medal, and then again to help Mick Jones negotiate his way up and down, as Jones had been receiving treatment for a dislocated elbow while his teammates had been getting their prizes." Verified.
• FN 50 cites "After 540 Football League appearances ...": the source only says "Leeds appearances"; the second part of this sentence points out that he actually had 726 appearances for Leeds, so we need a source that specifies that 540 only applies to the League.

I'll pause there to let you fix these and do another spotcheck once that's done. You might want to have a look through the other citations in case there are other imprecisions you could tighten up. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 12:35, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. One of the earlier citations covers the 1964 promotion so I ref named that. I decided to expand the 1968, 1969 and 1971 trophies and these pieces have extra sources now. I brought back englandfootballonline.com as it confirms the number of matches he played for Leeds (540 and 726); I also added a source for the BCFC transfer fee which was missing. Could you please check these amendments when you have time? Thanks again. PearlyGigs (talk) 20:13, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

All good except that I think you need to put back in the sources you had for "Hunter was a key player ..." -- we still need something that supports him being a key player, and ideally "one of the strongest teams in Europe", though I'd be OK with saying that reaching the final of a European competition is evidence of that. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:29, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. The www.nationalfootballmuseum article covers everything in that sentence so I've restored it as the source. PearlyGigs (talk) 15:09, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Second spotchecks; footnote numbers refer to this version:

• FNs 9, 10, & 11 cite "After playing in a trial match for Leeds United Juniors against Bradford Park Avenue Juniors, Hunter was invited to join the ground staff at Elland Road." This must be in Hunter & Waters, since I don't see it in the other two web citations, and I don't have a copy. Can you quote the supporting text?
• FN 96 cites "The club announced on 23 April that the South Stand at Elland Road would be renamed in his honour as the Norman Hunter South Stand." Verified.
• FN 87 cites "Dave Mackay won an apology and undisclosed damages from Left Bank Pictures." This needs to include a citation for the name of the company, which doesn't seem to be in the source.
• FN 73 cites "The team did well in 1981–82, finishing in sixth place and only four points shy of promotion." Verified.

-- Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:38, 29 June 2024 (UTC)

You're right, the Daily Record doesn't name Left Bank Pictures. I've changed the sentence to read "makers of the film".

Norman's autobiography confirms that he played his trial match against Bradford PA — would you believe, I drove past their old ground on Thursday! — so I've added page 10 as the citation there.

Thanks again. PearlyGigs (talk) 15:24, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

OK -- I do have to do another spotcheck, since the article has to pass a spotcheck for GA. If the next one fails I would have to fail the GA -- can you confirm you're confident there are no more fixes needed to the sources, before I start? Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 15:36, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Well, I'm reasonably confident but I would never be 100% certain about anything. Mike, if you should have to fail the review, don't worry. It's the first one I've nominated and the goal is to have a thorough review done to give me a benchmark for improving the article. It was a bit of a mess when I picked it up last year and I'd just like to be sure I'm moving it in the right direction. So, please, go ahead (fingers crossed!). PearlyGigs (talk) 15:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Third spotchecks; footnote numbers refer to this version.

• FN 5 cites "He attended Eighton Banks Primary School till he was eleven and then went to Birtley Secondary Modern School till he was 15." Can you confirm this is on p. 7 of Hunter & Waters?
• FN 59 cites "In 1968, Hunter married Sue Harper". Verified.
• FN 4 cites "In 1988, Hunter was a coach at Leeds under Howard Wilkinson, but he was again dismissed. His final job in football was assistant manager to Terry Yorath at Bradford City from 1989 to February 1990 when, once more, he was given the sack." Doesn't support February; only supports 1990. Can you either add another source to support February, or cut the month from the sentence?
• FN 86 cites "The World Soccer review says, as an aside to Giles' legal action: 'Norman Hunter hardly says anything (in the book), but he's still alive so escapes Peace's hatchet job'." Verified; I changed it to square brackets as that's standard for interjections in a quote.
• FN 82 cites "In 1998, the Football League, as part of its centenary season celebrations, included Hunter in its list of 100 League Legends." Verified.
• FN 79 cites "Hunter said that going to Bristol City was one of his best decisions, but going to Rotherham was the worst. For much of his time there, he had only nine professionals and, when he did buy a few players, the board sold them on. His two years at Rotherham were, he said, "the least enjoyable of my entire football career"." Can you confirm this is on p. 178 of Hunter & Waters?
• FN 76 cites "Barnsley did not forget Hunter's promotion season and, following his death in 2020, he was inducted into the club's Oakwell Hall of Fame; Clarke was inducted on the same day." Verified, but the page has moved to here; you may want to update the link.
• FN 70 cites "On 11 June 1967, he travelled to Montreal with the Football Association XI to play in an exhibition match against Borussia Dortmund as part of an Expo International Tournament. The FA XI won 3–2 and Hunter scored the winning goal." Verified.
• FN 63 cites "He was in the squad which won the 1966 FIFA World Cup but did not play in any of the matches." Verified.

Since it's just one word at issue for FN 4, I did a few more spotchecks, which all came up clean, and I'm going to call this a spotcheck pass once you've checked Hunter & Waters for the two I queried. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 18:53, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Checks:

• FN 5 — it is, but I've expanded the citation to include page 10 as that is also about him leaving school.
• FN 4 — I think this is best reworded as it didn't read too well. I'm sure I've seen February 1990 somewhere because it's in my notes but — gone. In his autobiography, he just says he was there for one year with no dates given. I've removed February and revised the wording to tally with what Glanville says.
• FN 86 — thanks; I wasn't aware of that.
• FN 79 — yes, that tallies exactly. The "least enjoyable" comment ends a chapter.
• FN 76 — they must have moved it in the last three or four weeks; I've replaced the URL and thanks for finding that.

Hope those amendments are okay. As before, please check when you have time. Thanks again. PearlyGigs (talk) 19:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Looks good. Will read through the article and make any additional notes below. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 20:40, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Mike. I need to log out now but I'll be back tomorrow. All the best. PearlyGigs (talk) 20:43, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

More comments. I'll put "(Optional)" in front of anything that's not required for GA, but is just a suggestion.

• (Optional): if his father died from a WW2 related cause that might be interesting to mention.

Norman says on page 2 of H&W that his dad died of a heart attack in August 1943 during football training. It seems he was many years older than Norman's mother so might have been exempt from military service.

• "This was significant for young players like Hunter and Bremner because Revie initiated a youth development policy which was the basis of the club's future success. Other graduates included Paul Reaney, Peter Lorimer, Terry Cooper, Eddie Gray and Paul Madeley." It's not clear what "other" refers to -- it seems to mean Hunter and Bremner, but normally youth development means players developed through the club's own youth programs, but Hunter and Bremner had been at the club for years when Revie initiated the program.

Yes, you're right. I've reworded so that the graduations are later.

• "probably (Leeds') biggest test yet": should that be square brackets? I assume that's not in the source?

Yes, as per the one you found earlier. I've made the change.

• "a banner reading 'Norman bites yer legs' and Hunter was thereafter nicknamed "Bites Yer Leg", especially": "legs" vs. "leg"? My memory is that it was always "legs".

Yes, that was a typo. It was and is plural. Well spotted.

By the way, I decided to expand this because Norman commented on the inevitable jokes in his autobiography and quotes a similar version to yours above.

• "A famous photograph of Hunter's celebration when the goal was scored has been published many times": Can we cite this? I know the photo you link is indeed famous, but the source doesn't say so.

I searched high and low but can't find any actual opinions of the photo, although it appears online many times. I decided to weave the mention into the text by saying how Norman reacted when Clarke scored.

• The first sentence of the "International career" section is uncited.

EFO was useful for that but I decided to revise it a little as well to provide better context.

• In the "Playing style" section, I think it needs to be clearer that the description of his skils in "He achieved the ..." is Revie's; as it stands, even though you've just mentioned Revie's comments, it sounds like we're saying this in Wikipedia's voice.

It did seem as if we had heard from Revie and were moving on. I've amended it to keep Revie involved with each comment.

• (Optional): MOS:DASH requires either unspaced em dashes, or spaced en dashes; you have spaced em dashes.

Yes, that's right. I think I found them and decided to use spaced endashes instead.

• "The next Golf Day is on 14 June 2024": now in the past, and it's not really encyclopedic to give these dates. Perhaps say the Golf Days continue to be arranged each year as of 2024?

That got overtaken by passage of time. I've reworded the endpiece to tie this year's event to Sue Hunter's comments in May.

That's everything. Not an issue for GA, but I did wonder when I first looked at the article if it would mention my own favourite Norman Hunter story -- if you were a fan at the time I imagine you heard it. The version I heard goes like this: Jackie Charlton's wife was talking to Norman Hunter's wife, who said "Norman came home with a badly bruised leg from the match yesterday", to which the reply was "Oh, yes? Whose was it?" A joke, but quite a well-known one. I'm certainly not saying you should include it, but if you did want to I found a couple of references to it on newspapers.com -- e.g. there's a piece by Julie Welch on p. 18 of The Observer for 8 Auguest 1982, where she tells a slightly different version. Anyway, the list above is pretty short, and I expect to promote this to GA when it's dealt with. Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 22:23, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Thanks, Mike. There's a few variations on that leg story. I like another one about him when he made his international debut as a substitute. As Norman came on, Alan Ball looked up at the sky, put his hands together, and said: "For what they are about to receive". PearlyGigs (talk) 23:15, 30 June 2024 (UTC)

Those are all good points. If it's okay, I'll add a comment below each one in turn. I've done a few as above. I've been struggling for time so far today but I should be okay later. PearlyGigs (talk) 11:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Hi, Mike. I think I've addressed all the points above now, but please check the amendments. I tried to find a source for the fame of the 1972 photo but drew a blank, although the photo is widely available online. Thanks again for all your help with the article which is looking much better now. PearlyGigs (talk) 13:53, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

Fixes all look good; passing GA. Congratulations! Mike Christie (talk - contribs - library) 14:24, 1 July 2024 (UTC)

That's great. Thank you, Mike, for a very thorough review which is just what was needed to smooth the rough edges off. I'll keep it in view and hopefully it will continue to be improved. Best wishes. PearlyGigs (talk) 14:44, 1 July 2024 (UTC)