Talk:O sanctissima

O dear!

So much work by an anonymous editor, 62.143.27.49. So much typing, so much information added, so many edits. I can only imagine the amount of work, even if it was, as it seems, cut and paste. A lot of care went into this. But as it stand, in its current format, so inappropriate for Wikipedia. O dear. What to do? It looks like there is good information which should be preserved. Thank you, 62.143.27.49, for all your work. Now, can it be cleaned up?  Sean Lotz  talk  22:46, 8 December 2006 (UTC)

reply from author of additions:

1. the beginning of article as I first time saw it in scientific terms is RIDICULOUS, that is of so POOR content-quality, that I first thought it NOT WORTHWILE to spend ANY effort! Even QUALITY of informations gathered from the web in general is RATHER POOR!!!

2. Please, I do not quite understand, whether your talk is just "kidding around" - BECAUSE MY ADDITIONS ARE UP TO EXTENDED SCIENTIFIC INTERNATIONAL STANDARDS. If you INSIST on QUALITY-DISCUSSION - I simply can REMOVE ALL - and let the rest of internet get lost in VANITY and even STUPIDITY. NO PROBLEM for my self-esteem, because I AM FAMOUS ALREADY FOR MY QUALITY and RECOGNIZED BY INTERNATIONAL INSTITUTES - not just by any.

And very sorry: THIS MAY NOT BE THE LEVEL OF DISCUSSION I am USED to - or thatcan produce PROCEEDINGS.

3. If you have SPECIFIC information - and please: ONLY specific information - read FIRST my additions and feel free to share your KNOWLEDGE, such for instance on ORIGIN and AGE of "O sanctissima", Latin version! (Supposed you have a propper command of LATIN and history of medieval liturgical poetry??!!)

Sorry again: THIS IS NOT MY LINE OF OPERATION, and if you or anyone else continues to DISAGREE, we will depart without regret, but DEPART! —Preceding unsigned comment added by 62.143.27.49 (talk • contribs) 00:05, 9 December 2006

I carefully expanded the article using WP:Reliable sources, guided by the extensive notes from 62.143.27.*/BrunoBuike about the hymn. His self-deleted Wikipedia additions are permanently linked as:

https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=O_Sanctissima&oldid=93123160 ,

and his 44-page self-published elaboration is currently available as:

Buike, Bruno (December 2006). "O sanctissima – O du froehliche – Research – Exposee and Bibliographical Survey".,

which is listed at https://brunobuike.wordpress.com/buike-science/ as "BBWV E21".

His notes about the hymn are not appropriate for including directly in an encyclopedia article, as Queezbo/SeanLotz rightly commented above. However, I think Buike's links are appropriate for this Talk page, acknowledging his efforts that eventually guided substantial improvements to several Wikipedia articles: O Sanctissima; O du fröhliche; We Shall Overcome. Belated thanks to both Buike and Lotz for their helpful guidance. —Patrug (talk) 11:07, 18 October 2016 (UTC)

Famous adaptations

The "O Sanctissima" article experiences a sharp annual jump in readership leading up to Christmas, due to the melody's use in the popular carol "O du fröhliche" and its many translations. As I noted in the "High traffic" banners above, readership also jumped sharply in May 2015, when The New York Times and The Atlantic both linked to the Wikipedia article in major obituaries for Guy Carawan, who popularized "We Shall Overcome" using half of the "O Sanctissima" melody. The all-time sharpest jumps in the Wikipedia article's readership combined both of these triggers, when shortly after Carawan's death, "O Sanctissima" was a crossword puzzle clue for a Christmas carol (NOEL), first in the Times on 23 May 2015, then in syndication on 27 June 2015. Since these two musical adaptations have brought thousands of additional readers to this article, I've highlighted the adaptations with an extra sentence in the lead paragraph. —Patrug (talk) 11:03, 24 October 2016 (UTC)

Claims of earlier origins

It's possible that Johann Gottfried Herder heard "O Sanctissima" when he visited Sicily in 1788. However, he did not publish the hymn until 1807, four years after his death, and fifteen years after European Magazine published the hymn and propelled its international popularity.

It's possible that Charles Burney heard "O Sanctissima" sung by Sicilian sailors when he visited Venice in 1770, since European Magazine alludes to this visit immediately before describing the hymn in the November 1792 issue. However, Burney did not mention the hymn in the "Venice" chapter of his 1771 book, and his experience of three thousand voices in unison described by European Magazine actually matched the "Dresden" chapter of his 1773 book, which involved neither Venice nor Sicilians.

So, in William Seward's European Magazine article, his source for "O Sanctissima" might have been Herder or Burney, or Seward himself, or some other "travellers" still unnamed. Since no such attribution has yet been found in any WP:Reliable sources, I've trimmed the Wikipedia article accordingly. —Patrug (talk) 07:35, 26 October 2016 (UTC)

Also unverified is a high-schooler's claim (with translation) that the first lines of the text were already engraved at Speyer Cathedral at the time of Saint Bernard of Clairvaux (1090–1153). —Patrug (talk) 00:59, 27 October 2016 (UTC)

A little bit more reputable: [1], see here, too: [2] Greetings, --Sokkok (talk) 23:49, 18 November 2016 (UTC)

@Sokkok: Good information, thank you! The high-school webpage and your references [1] & [2] all appear to be uncredited copies from Volkssagen und Märchen der Deutschen und Ausländer, ed. Ferdinand Philipp "Lothar" Grimm, 1820, which I just added to the Wikipedia article. However, 1820 was already 28 years after European Magazine published the hymn in 1792, so this doesn't prove a medieval origin for the text. If the cathedral engraving really goes back to the 1100s, hopefully someone can find evidence from before the 1800s. —Patrug (talk) 05:45, 20 November 2016 (UTC)

I've also posted this query at Talk:Speyer Cathedral#Age of famous hymn engraving?. —Patrug (talk) 22:22, 15 January 2017 (UTC)

Since the hymn spread so rapidly after November 1792, with no trace confirmed from earlier years, it seems most plausible that it was created during or shortly before 1792. Any earlier evidence would be most welcome. —Patrug (talk) 00:13, 28 November 2016 (UTC)

See here. --Sokkok (talk) 18:17, 6 November 2017 (UTC)

Christoph Lehmann mentions in his Chronica Der Freyen Reichs-Stadt Speier (first released in 1612, digitalized version from the 1698 Edition) between page 438 and 440 different version of the story when Bernard of Clairvaux was in the cathedral, said either in german or in latin the words O clemens, o pia, o dulcis virgo Maria (which means o gracious, o loving, o sweet virgin mary) and then talked to the madonna. Based on that and what I saw in the cathedral (photos of the engravings can be found on Commons / in the german article) i would say the O Sanctissima and the engravings (that are more or less correctly translated in Volkssagen und Märchen der Deutschen und Ausländer) are two different things. By the way, the words from the engravings were later added to the end of the Salve Regina probably by Bernard of Clairvaux. --Patrick Stützel (talk) 10:08, 7 November 2017 (UTC)

Very helpful, thanks. The article now includes your references to Lehmann and Salve Regina. —173.68.139.31 (talk) 20:53, 3 August 2019 (UTC)

In Jewish liturgy

The Chabad website has a recording of Psalm 114 that includes a quotation of this melody (from about 0:33). Is there any further information about this connection? Ibadibam (talk) 22:17, 6 August 2019 (UTC)

@Ibadibam: Interesting! I think the psalm tune is from the living songwriter Yitzi Hurwitz, but maybe it's based on traditional Hebrew melodies? (The website isn't very clear about attributions.) The chantlike musical phrase might occur just coincidentally in the two religious tunes, and a quick web search doesn't turn up any connection between them. However, it's at least vaguely possible that some Sicilian mariners might have been familiar with an ancient Hebrew chant about the Red Sea & Jordan River. The matching portion of the psalm tune (0:33-0:42) uses verse 5 as text, where the psalmist celebrates God's power over nature: "Why was it, Sea, that you fled? Jordan, that you turned back?" This is the portion of the "O Sanctissima" tune that evolved into the first half of "We Shall Overcome", so perhaps its leading researcher Victor Bobetsky might have some insight on a possible Hebrew connection. It's also possible that Hurwitz wrote the triumphant psalm tune with "We Shall Overcome" in mind. —173.68.139.31 (talk) 03:23, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

That's a fascinating observation about the content of that verse. The performer is certainly Yitzi Hurwitz, but as far as I can tell he's not the composer, and as this recording is part of a series teaching traditional liturgy, I'd guess it's something that goes back a ways. It isn't uncommon for Jews to appropriate secular or even Christian melodies (see, for example, Ma'oz Tzur), but it's just as possible the similarity is coincidental. Ibadibam (talk) 05:20, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

Great if anyone can confirm whether the Hurwitz recording of Psalm 114 (Hallel – B'Tzeis Yisrael) was one of his own compositions, or whether the tune appeared in a traditional Jewish songbook somewhere. Especially if the chant melody was printed any earlier than 1792, it could potentially be another link for the mysterious origins of "O Sanctissima" and "We Shall Overcome". —173.68.139.31 (talk) 18:24, 9 August 2019 (UTC)

I wonder whether Debresser knows. Ibadibam (talk) 16:37, 30 August 2019 (UTC)

I don't. But I am trying to find out. Debresser (talk) 17:54, 31 August 2019 (UTC)