Talk:Of Mice and Men/Archive 1

Archive 1

Edits

2/6/07 In the 'References' section, the mentioning of Of Mice and Men in the current popular ABC drama, LOST should be talked about. James "Sawyer" Ford is reading the novella throughout the episode, "Every Man for Himself".

Possible addition to category fictional characters with mental illness due to Lennie having mental retardation? User:ShadyCharacter

Is there such a category? If so, I don't see why not. Carlo 20:11, 28 February 2007 (UTC)

Why were the ISBN #s deleted? i reverted. Ultrarob 21:48, Jun 4, 2004 (UTC)

Isn't Of Mice and Men considered a novel? I checked the web and it seems like it's considered a novel more than a novella. Therefore, I changed it to novel in the article. Let me know if anyone finds anything contrary.

I think its called a novelette, a small novel :) Ghingo

3/8/06- I found this list of standards in the entry under "novelette:"

• Epic: A work of 200,000 words or more.
• Novel: A work of 60,000 words or more (40,000 for the Hugo and Nebula).
• Novella: A work of at least 17,500 words but under 60,000 words (40,000 for the Hugo and Nebula).
• Novelette: A work of at least 7,500 words but under 17,500 words.
• Short story: A work of at least 2,000 words but under 7,500 words. (1,000 words minimum by some definitions)
• Flash fiction: A work of less than 2,000 words. (1,000 by some definitions)

I'm sure that Of Mice and Men is at least a novella, and I would bet that it's at least 60,000 words.

Lol sure thnx :S

An extended annotated version of the novella can be found at Wikibooks:Of Mice and Men. So is it a novel or novella? Aceofspades 17:11, 28 March 2006 (UTC)

[May 24] Of Mice and Men is required reading in many American high schools and I thought that there was an anti-American bias in the article the way it said that Americans banned it while Europeans read it, showing us [Americans] as prude censors. [May 24]

Interpreting too much

The statement on the page that says George's last name is derived from John Milton, the author of Paradise Lost, is really grasping at straws. People can sometimes interpret where there is no meaning at all in literature. If his name were George Simpson would it be a reference to The Simpsons? Sometimes a name is just a name. This portion of the article should be removed.

No, here it's true about the name - the title of the book - Of Mice and Men - was derived from the play Paradise Lost, which was written by John Milton. 24.17.72.118 02:37, 9 May 2007 (UTC)

Actually, the title comes from a line from the Poem To a Mouse. Also, the quote given here is incorect. The quote should be 'The best laid schemes o' mice an' men / Gang aft agley'

GCSE English Lit

Of Mice and Men is also required reading for most GCSE English Lit students as it will be required for examination.

I think it is upto the teacher which book the class read as long as it is provided by the examination board. I thought there were a multitude of papers. :?

I removed the material below from the "Overview" section. I don't know where, if anywhere, it would go. Maybe a small section on use in schools, or maybe it doesn't need to be here at all. --Bejnar 20:13, 21 May 2007 (UTC)

It is one of the novels which English GCSE students must study for paper 1 of the English Literature GCSE course, alongside a play and poetry, in England, Northern Ireland and Wales, Standard Grade in Scotland and the Leaving Certificate in Ireland, and is often read in Norwegian schools also. It is studied in several high schools in Las Vegas, Nevada, and Victoria, Australia as part of the leadup to the completion of the School Certificate in year 10 in NSW and the VCE (Victorian Certificate of Education). It is a prescribed English text for the International Baccalaureate Diploma Programme and is studied by Maltese students taking their English A Level or Intermediate Level exams for their Matriculation Certificate. by Neeera (pk international geek)- not very nice

MLA Format

Why doesnt someone add the MLA citation to this book. Since it is required reading for many students. [[1]] OWL MLA FORMAT; &ndash (Aceofspades 17:10, 28 March 2006 (UTC))

Banned?

I heard that this got banned in some states in USA for "Profanity" (I spelt it wrong) What on earth is profanity and even though it dosen't concern me, (I live in New Zealand) why did they ban it? i see no reason. You get worse books in USA (there's a bug list of books banned on some site but im not sure what it is.) Being 15, Im currently reading it for NCEA (NZ school thingy) and I really enjoy the book and i find it quite annoying to find it banned in some places.

That is pretty stupid in my oponion to ban a book just because it a few bad words like the n-word and hell.

It wasn't banned because of profanity but because it was "supporting"/"promoting" euthanasia...which, i think is rubbish...--Frills 08:15, 20 April 2006 (UTC)

I'm reading this book right now in English class. When we were doing a building background information on this book , my teacher said that Lennie was retarded because he slow or something. Rio de oro (talk) 20:30, 24 February 2008 (UTC)

I'm 15 as well and I am reading it in school in the USA, in Minnesota it isn't actually banned some states just don't have it taught in their schools because they support things that they don't consider moral like euthanasia, or at least that they don't think should be discussed in a place of learning. However it's not like these books are locked away. Everyone has access to them and it's in every library, and denying people access to the book or any other book just because it talks about vulgar subjects is against the constitutional law, but yes there are several classic books some schools don't think suitable to teach such as, The Great Gatsby, and The Catcher in The Rye, books that our school teaches but some do not. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 12.218.12.109 (talk) 22:58, 16 March 2008 (UTC)

u probably don't know much about american law but it is illegal for anyting to get banned so nothing is baned —Preceding unsigned comment added by 71.225.228.190 (talk) 02:21, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

That's not true at all; books get banned from US schools all the time. A politically incorrect author like Steinbeck would seem especially likely to be banned. It might fail a constitutional challenge, but no one ever bothers making one.Kenhullett (talk) 03:52, 11 April 2008 (UTC)

Yeah, it's not uncommon for people to try to get books pulled from school curricula or removed from public libraries for "indecency." A lot of that seems to have died down, but the concept rears its ugly head every so often, mostly on a local level. There's been plenty of attempts to keep the Harry Potter books out of public school libraries, and my high school was the source of a FUCK User talk:Schoop|talk]] • contribs) 16:39, 14 May 2008 (UTC)

168.10.168.201 Edits

It seems 168.10.168.201 edits took out a lot of important information. VandalProof attempted to hinder the effects of 168.10.168.201, but was unsucessful as it reverted to the previous 168.10.168.201 edit, which was also an act of vandalism. I attempted to revert some changes while including some newer information added since, and leaving some of the old info out as it can be found in the extended annotated version of the novella at Wikibooks:Of Mice and Men. Traslaen 20:48, 13 May 2006 (UTC)

I am reading it too but dont feel so strongly about it as you. You sound like an absolute gayden really. My personal recomendation is you also go to spelling classes —Preceding unsigned comment added by 82.39.155.173 (talk) 14:40, 22 September 2007 (UTC)

of wolf and man by Metallica

It's NOT an allusion to Steinbeck's novel, it's an allusion to an old philosophical maxim "Homo homini lupus est" (A man is a wolf to another man). Will delete the reference.

And, what is this saying supposed to mean? --Luigifan 01:10, 5 April 2007 (UTC)

The Title

Shouldn't the article point out that the title comes from the poem "To A Mouse" by Robert Burns? —The preceding unsigned comment was added by 69.216.97.240 (talk • contribs) 23:50, 3 December 2006 (UTC).yes

"Bought the farm"

Is the phrase "bought the farm" based on this book? Like, I know that the farm George and Lenny dreamt of buying is representative of heaven, so the rest seems pretty obvious. So, is it the origin of the phrase? If it is, I'm kind of surprised that a book from the 1930s led to that phrase being so popular. Popular phrases usually come from things of pop culture and important history, especially the Bible and Shakespeare, and TV and movies in today's world, but not from books in the 1930s. It's hard to imagine people being so into reading at that time to make this such a prominent phrase.J.J. Bustamante 04:05, 15 January 2007 (UTC)

"bought the farm" is one of those phrases with multiple explainations. See [2] or [3]. Yngvarr 11:24, 17 May 2007 (UTC)

Poor Overview!

I find that the overview of the article is poorly written. Curley's wife's death is not adequately explained (the article makes it look as if Lennie wanted to murder her). The overview doesn't spend enough time explaining the other seventy-some pages of the novel. I think that someone should fix this; I'm kind of busy for the time being. Wikiisawesome 15:54, 16 May 2007 (UTC)

The overview does need revision and could be longer. Saying that Lennie killed Curley's wife while trying to stroke her hair is simply wrong. He was attempting to silence her while she was resisting. More should be said of Lennie's struggle to remember the rules he readily obeys. General additions to cover the whole plot would be also be good.72.66.130.166 (talk) 08:31, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

copyright problem

I just reverted text that was a substantial copy from http://www.gradesaver.com/classicnotes/titles/miceandmen/shortsumm.html (John User:Jwy talk) 02:55, 14 January 2008 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Mice men movieposter.jpg

Image:Mice men movieposter.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

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BetacommandBot (talk) 00:44, 14 February 2008 (UTC)

References in Pop Culture

Do y'all think the Warner Bros. character the Abomnable Snowman was patterend after Lennie Small? Esp. considering Buggy Bunny and the name "George". Vampromero (talk) 21:15, 14 March 2008 (UTC)

Style

Themes

In every bit of honest writing in the world, ...there is a base theme. Try to understand men, if you understand each other you will be kind to each other. Knowing a man well never leads to hate and nearly always leads to love.

• Understanding is the underlying theme of John Steinbeck's Of Mice and Men as noted in his personal journal.

Denied wives, or families, or circles of sympathetic friends, this feelings can only be partially satisfied thu [sic] the institution of 'partners.' Most Men hate to travel alone on the road.

• Partnership is predominant as throughout between George and Lennie, as stated
• Loneliness has been expressed though George, Lennie, Candy, Crooks, and Curley's wife as each admits a desire for a friend, however is forced to for a stranger.
• The fragility of the dream, most characters confesses to a desire of living a different life and how they are unable to obtain it.

Motifs

• The Corrupting Power of Women
• Loneliness and Companionship
• Strength and Weakness
• Rabbits

Symbolism

• Rabbits representing the dream
• Lennie's puppy and Candy's dog representing awaiting death.
• Carlson represents such myopic vision to the point where he cannot comprehend Slim and George's exit at the end.

</source>

References to look up when we get the chance:

• Google Search Results
• Cliff Notes
• Answers.com
• Novel Guide -->

I believe that we need to add a new section detailing the themes, motifs, and symbolism in John Stienbeck's Of Mice and men. At the bottom of the section is the proposed addition. ChyranandChloe (talk) 02:26, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

Good idea. We would need reliable sources for that content (if it is more than a set of examples). Also, how do you perceive the difference between themes and motifs. A motif is usually a recurring image, so I'm not sure how those three fit that.
Jim Dunning | talk 02:59, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

A theme is the underlying idea or principal of a story, it's sort of the lesson or purpose of it - like the theme Of Mice and Men could easily be to appreciate people who are underprivileged. A motif is something that keeps recurring, it's a device the author uses to help present the theme; for example, you could say the rabbits and dogs are motifs, because every time you hear Lennie mention a rabbit it's followed George explaining their dream, and every time a dog dies it represents a death waiting to occur (Candy awaiting death when he reaches the end of his useful years, and Lennie when he kills the puppy). Symbolism is an object that represents something more than what it is; for example, rabbits can be used again because it represents Lennie and George's desire for a homestead, or how Crook's damaged back could represent his disability of being black. ¶The set example above aren't meant to be put immediately into the article, that's why they're here in the discussion. I'm still looking for more reliable sources, the ones above aren't that great, but it's what we got.ChyranandChloe (talk) 18:31, 6 May 2008 (UTC)

I think we need to rework this, subdividing the general Style or in this case Theme would be too difficult and too judgmental for this novella. John Steinbeck wrote this to be "something that happened" or what he called "non-thelelogical thinking". Therefore I commented out the previous proposals. Nonteleological thinking ChyranandChloe (talk) 01:56, 7 June 2008 (UTC)

I have finally added the themes section, perhaps prematurely, there is still cleanup to be done and I still need to reference Susan Shillinglaw's essay introduction. You will find some helpful comments within the edit page (the comments there to make referencing easier).

Motifs and Symbolism is difficult to include because Steinbeck made them so subtle. One good example you can use is—well—have you noticed how Steinbeck describe his characters almost like animals? For example, in the fist chapter he describes Lennie with "paws" and other verbs we usually attribute to animals. Anyway this is it, feel free to comment in the discussion page about what we still need and what we want to cut out, I'm feeling like I'm talking to myself. ChyranandChloe (talk) 04:09, 16 June 2008 (UTC)

Plot length

I removed the "expand plot" maintenance tag since it doesn't not need expansion. Novel style guidelines state, "A plot summary should avoid reproducing the work being discussed. Instead, it should summarise the work, touching on plot, important events, character developments etc." This summary does that. It could certainly benefit from addition of real-world context, which would also be accommodated by the addition of a Themes section. Keep in mind this is a novella, a short work with a straight-forward storyline, so not much Plot description is needed.
Jim Dunning | talk 19:31, 10 May 2008 (UTC)

Styles Section

We need to get a Styles section going for Of Mice and Men to accommodate technique Steinbeck used while witting the book. This would accommodate Symbolism, Motifs, and edits such as "In a textbook example of foreshadowing, Lennie kills his pet mouse, and a puppy, by stroking them too roughly". ChyranandChloe (talk) 02:51, 25 June 2008 (UTC)

Main Characters

"Curley's wife – A young, pretty woman, sometimes called a "tart" by the men and mistrusted by her husband, Curley. The other characters refer to her only as "Curley's wife," and she is the only significant character in the novella without a name. She had dreams of becoming an actress, but has failed to achieve this due to her marriage with Curley."

I don't really agree with this. Isn't Candy's dog an important character too? I mean, the murdering of him really changed Candy's outlook throughout the remainder of the book, I think. Turbokoala (talk) 23:56, 15 July 2008 (UTC)

Yes, Candy's dog is important because it is a foreshadow to what happens to Lennie. However we don't want this article looking like spark notes, see Novel style guidelines. I need to fix the contradiction though, "sometimes called tart" and "other characters refer to her only as 'Curley's wife',[...]" doesn't make sense. ChyranandChloe (talk) 02:42, 16 July 2008 (UTC)

Request for Semi-Protection

This article has experienced tremendous vandalism. Under WP:ROUGH semi-protection is a possible measure to ensure that the content of this article remains relevant, clean, and accurate. Nearly 90% of edits since the beginning of August has been cited as vandalism. Since the beginning of August there has been at least 30 attempts of vandalism, and 19 reverts. There have been no significant additions of content since late June. Since August, 100% of all vandalism are from unregistered users.

Of Mice and Men is required reading for many high school students, because of this: contempt is a very likely possibility for this vandalism. I am requesting Semi-Protection for at least the remainder of the school year (end of June). ChyranandChloe (talk) 02:11, 6 September 2008 (UTC)

The Life Of the Writer

Reffer to the page John Steinback —Preceding unsigned comment added by 74.129.82.25 (talk) 00:06, 7 November 2008 (UTC)

what do people see in this book?

I have noticed a considerable amount of debate on this book. Noticing that it is primarily between teachers and english students, I wish to pose the question: "What do English teachers and others who promote this book see in it that is worth so much fuss?" any response would be appreciated. I have simply found too many arguments against the book; I want to hear from the opposite side. What makes this book so compelling that teachers continue to ask their students to read it? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 144.17.15.129 (talk) 17:51, 16 January 2009 (UTC)

Actually most of the discussion here is quite old (people need to sign their post), and we should probably archive some of it soon. Most of the fuss is actually over quite minor: it's a novella since it's not long enough for a novel, how long the plot should be, and so on. My assumption of why teachers continue to ask their students to read is because: it's short and easy, it's classic and is a good representation of the time period, and perhaps it follows an interesting theme. If you have more questions that is not related to improving the article, please see the reference desk. ChyranandChloe (talk) 21:25, 17 January 2009 (UTC)

Good points. Additionally, the themes and literary devices Steinbeck used are easy to identify and understand.
Jim Dunning | talk 06:13, 18 January 2009 (UTC)

lenny

Lenny is of limited mental capacity or capability. "of limited mental abilities" describes specific "abilities" which are not heavily referenced in the story72.66.130.166 (talk) 08:10, 27 January 2009 (UTC)

Little typo

Hi, I'm not an autoconfirmed user yet, but I noticed a small typo in the end of the "Plot Summary" paragraph : It should read as "finds Lennie and gently recites with him their dreams ". Thanks for modifying.

Now fixed! Thanks GrahamHardy (talk) 23:28, 3 April 2009 (UTC)

Crooks is Another Hopeful

Crooks has no money to put into the prospective purchase of the land, but he does offer (to Lennie) to come and work at the land in exchange for room and board, thus becoming another character with an investment in George and Lennie's dream.

friendship

friendship is the main theme of this novel of mice and men. The author portrayed how a friendhship should be through the characters of Lennie small and George —Preceding unsigned comment added by 210.212.240.146 (talk) 05:44, 27 October 2009 (UTC)

Could it also have a sexual theme? Why does Lenny do the "bad" things...? —Preceding unsigned comment added by 85.200.247.230 (talk) 23:30, 5 November 2009 (UTC)

Australia

Over here in Australia it is not as compulsory reading though it is a popular reading among high school students

I'm removing the extra exclamation marks after "Token Black man!"—Preceding unsigned comment added by 203.94.38.6 (talk • contribs) 23:51, 16 February 2006 (UTC)

Accuracy of plot summary second paragraph

I'm currently studying this book for my English GCSE, and i'm fairly sure that it is not crooks who is 'yet another hopeful,' but rather Candy, who lost his hand and offers to put the compensation money ($250) into buying the land, plus $50 he has saved and 'another $50 coming at the end of the month.'

I'm not yet changing it incase i'm wrong, i'll check the book first.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.130.220.54 (talk • contribs) 20:31, 7 July 2006 (UTC)

Just a little editing...

I did a little editing on the last sentence of the plot summary because I believe that the original sentence was a bit quite confusing. Just to let you know.—Preceding unsigned comment added by 69.181.230.173 (talk • contribs) 11:31, 13 December 2006 (UTC)

It's a novel, not a novella.

The front of the book even says, "A novel by John Steinbeck". --75.40.206.243 (talk) 22:55, 9 November 2009 (UTC)

The article uses the book's length to determine whether is a Novella or a Novel, not by self-described classifications from the publisher. Length of a novel gives an overview. ChyranandChloe (talk) 07:08, 8 December 2009 (UTC)

GCSE ENGLISH - speaking and listening exam

i am now doing a GCSE english core speaking and listening exam on mice and men and it is without a doubt absoloutly magneficent man —Preceding unsigned comment added by 78.146.196.21 (talk) 20:04, 27 May 2010 (UTC)

Character Chart?

Would it be appropriate to make a chart for the characters it seems more organized than the current list format . --@Discover10 05:13, 14 July 2010 (UTC) —Preceding unsigned comment added by Discover10 (talk • contribs)

errors

some silly person has added in false information. there is no reference to the age of Curley, nor to the name of his wife (the book never tells the reader her name is Pamela, or that Curley is 25)

Rrrmanion (talk) 11:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)rrrmanionRrrmanion (talk) 11:52, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Rrrmanion, 13 January 2011

{{edit semi-protected}}

please remove text describing Curley as age 25, and text saying his wife's name is Pamela. these are not correct, and never mentioned in the book. Rrrmanion (talk) 11:56, 13 January 2011 (UTC)

DoneYou are definitely correct on the wife—the NY Times citation has a direct quote from Steinbeck saying he didn't name her on purpose. I don't have evidence of a lack of age, but I'll WP:AGF that you're right in that regard, too. Changes made. Qwyrxian (talk) 02:10, 14 January 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from Lukeyj15, 14 March 2011

{{edit semi-protected}} Please change the part where it says Curley wears a glove full of vaseline on his right hand. It was his left hand in the book.

And in the character description of Curley's wife, accidentally is spelt wrong.

Lukeyj15 (talk) 07:08, 14 March 2011 (UTC)

Partly done: I'll trust what you said about the hand, because I honestly don't remember. I don't know really what your referring to that is spelled wrong. Inka⁸⁸⁸ 05:45, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Done "accidentally" was spelt wrong, in the character description of Curley's wife. Thanks Lukeyj15, it's fixed now.--BelovedFreak 11:52, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Wow, I read through that section 5 times and I still missed that. I need glasses:P. Inka⁸⁸⁸ 23:53, 15 March 2011 (UTC)

Robert Burns' Quote, Edit Request

The last line in the translation - "oft go awry" is not full English, and may be hard to understand for some people. I know this is a small request, but please may I suggest that it is changed to "often go awry" for better reading and understanding.

Thanks

89.242.148.14 (talk) 19:02, 17 March 2011 (UTC)Seb

Publishing Date

The year of publication may be wrong. Some sources show the movie came out in 1936. The movie is based on the book so it stands to reason that the book was produced before the movie. Gingermint (talk) 20:31, 31 October 2011 (UTC)

The puppies

Slim's dog does give birth to a litter of puppies, but the information that he gave one to Carlson is false. He was actually supposed to give one to Candy, once they were old enough. Please fix it, 71.236.217.58 (talk) 05:04, 2 June 2011 (UTC)Anonymous

 Done--Qataq (talk) 01:52, 17 October 2011 (UTC)

Edit request from 76.22.122.181, 4 June 2011

Take the "s" off Burns's. Make it just Burns'

76.22.122.181 (talk) 21:42, 4 June 2011 (UTC)

 Done--JayJasper (talk) 05:36, 5 June 2011 (UTC)

No, this is actually not completely done.

-> en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Of_Mice_and_Men#Development - In the second paragraph, there are stil two "Burns's" --RossSLynch (talk) 15:06, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

missed points

The plot description misses significant points and events: Lennie often catches field mice, which he keeps in his pocket, but in stroking them he invariably kills them. George is often resentful that he has to take care of Lennie, and regrets having promised to do so. George kills Lennie with Curley's gun, effectively framing him -- which is plausible, given that Lennie killed Curley's wife. (As framing someone for murder was not acceptable to the Production Code, the 1939 movie has a different source for the gun, but I don't remember what it was.) WilliamSommerwerck (talk) 01:28, 2 September 2011 (UTC)

Carlson's gun, not Curley's. This is true to the book and the film. Curley also has a gun, but he has it on his person. Framing Curley would be pointless because Curley was willing to kill Lennie anyway.. Qataq (talk) 18:36, 28 September 2011 (UTC) George wasn't trying to frame anyone. He wanted to be the one who ended Lennie's life in a humane manner, rather than allowing Curley to torture him. This parallels the foreshadowing of Candy saying that it should have been him that shot his old dog, not Carlson. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Dmerr1 (talk • contribs) 21:13, 22 April 2012 (UTC)

Also damn him for making us learn this so much is school, 4 hour assessment! — Preceding unsigned comment added by 188.223.124.29 (talk) 19:43, 25 February 2013 (UTC) Steinbeck wrote Of Mice and Men in order to show the pain and miseries of dreams that the farm laborers went through. The novel was written to show through past experiences that dreams are stepping stones to fulfilling an aspiration and sometimes dreams are just forms of encouragement unlikely to come true. Furthermore, all characters represent some form of experiences that people went through. For example, Crooks represents the black people, Curley's wife represents the typical female in the times, and Curley represents those men that because of wealth had power but otherwise were just cold hearted useless men. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 207.233.109.98 (talk) 19:57, 25 July 2013 (UTC)

Lennie isn't laughing at Curley

The description of Curley states that "[a]t one point, Curley goes berserk after he sees Lennie laugh at him, and ends up with his hand horribly damaged after Lennie fights back against him, crushing his hand."

Lennie is not laughing at him. Curley unfortunately happens to look at Lennie, who is "still smiling with delight at the memory of the ranch." Please fix this mistake. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.83.41.192 (talk) 01:03, 22 September 2011 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 October 2012

In the summary, please update the link for the word, "bindlestiff" to the following: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hobo#Expressions_used_through_1940s

Thanks! Lucius Luciusism (talk) 20:03, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

 Done -Nathan Johnson (talk) 22:10, 27 October 2012 (UTC)

Characters - Crooks

For the above mentioned section, doesn't Crook change his mind about being with Lennie, George, and Candy, and living on their own ranch and hoeing the garden? In my book, it says

- "Member what I said about hoein' and doin' odd jobs? - "Well, jus' forget it", said Crooks. "I didn' mean it. Jus' foolin'. I wouldn' want to go no place like that."

- So again, Crooks changes his mind about living on George, Lennie, and Candy's own ranch. --RossSLynch (talk) 14:50, 23 November 2012 (UTC)

Edit request on 27 January 2013

George Milton: A quick-witted man who is Lennie's guardian and best friend. His friendship with Lennie helps him to sustain his dream of a better future. REMOVE THE WORD "TO" BEFORE SUSTAIN. It is unnecessary.

Lennie Small: A mentally disabled, but physically strong man who travels with George and is his constant companion.[4] He dreams of "living off the fatta' the lan'" and being able to tend to rabbits. His love for soft things conspires against him, mostly because he doesn't know his own strength, and eventually becomes his undoing. CONSPIRE means to plot against. I recommend change to - His love of soft things and inability to understand his own strength, even when being affectionate, eventually doom him. Bowiefan1970 (talk) 05:54, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Partly done: In the first matter, I removed both "him" and "to". In the second matter, while your wording probably would be satisfactory, I don't see that it's necessarily an improvement. Conspire means more than just to plot against. Quoting from the dictionary closest at hand, it also means "(of events or circumstances) seem to be working together to bring about a particular result, typically to someone's detriment". This usage isn't uncommon. "Doom", on the other hand, generally implies an inevitably bad outcome, and I'm not confident that Lennie's fate is inevitable so much as the product of a combination of factors, including his love for soft things and his inability to know his own strength but also including the specific circumstances of where they were and the people with whom they were interacting. Rivertorch (talk) 07:26, 27 January 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 25 July 2013

207.233.109.98 (talk) 19:56, 25 July 2013 (UTC) "All kin's a vegetables in the garden, and if we want a little whisky we can sell a few eggs or something, or some milk. We'd jus' live there. We'd belong there. There wouldn't be no more runnin' round the country and gettin' fed by a Jap cook. No, sir, we'd have our own place where we belonged and not sleep in no bunk house" (63).

Not done: please be more specific about what needs to be changed. What change are you suggesting? RudolfRed (talk) 01:04, 26 July 2013 (UTC)

Edit request on 24 September 2013

The "Characters" section has a quote box on the right with a width set to 25em, this width is to large for most mobile phones and results in text being cut off when rendered. I would like to suggest setting the width to be less then 21em wide.

Swypych (talk) 20:15, 24 September 2013 (UTC)

 Done. — Reatlas (talk) 11:26, 2 October 2013 (UTC)

Smitty not mentioned in the character list

Smitty is never mentioned in the character list. He is in chapter two and is the guy who brawled Crooks on christmas. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2.223.103.243 (talk) 17:51, 23 November 2013 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 9 February 2014

The Cultural influence section needs to be removed. The first sentence "The character of Lennie Small is used as the standard for legal mental retardation for executing a prisoner in Texas. If a person appears smarter than Lennie Small in an interview then he may be executed. If he does not then he cannot understand his crime(s)" is inaccurate as proven by this blog post(http://davidquigg.com/post/29044455691
the second sentence "John Steinbeck's son, Thomas Steinbeck, who is personally against the death penalty, has protested that this legal practice is a misappropriation and insult of his father's work" the citation is broken and it also it seems pointless because the first sentence is inaccurate.--71.170.100.11

71.170.100.11 (talk) 01:56, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Not done: as you have stated, the source you quoted is a blog - blogs are never considered as a reliable sources if you can find a reliable source, then please re-request. - Arjayay (talk) 17:37, 9 February 2014 (UTC)

Curley is described on the Wikipedia page as being jealous and protective of his wife. That's not right- he's possessive of her, not protective, he clearly views her as a possession, not a human being in her own right, and she says herself that he's "not a nice fella". This needs to be edited. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 81.152.76.18 (talk) 19:54, 2 March 2014 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 7 April 2015

I have to correct some minor grammatical errors Ronter123 (talk) 06:00, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Can you please tell us what those errors are? Stickee (talk) 06:02, 7 April 2015 (UTC)

Of Mice and Men in Schools

This would be a good addition to the existing page:

Along with being a widely read American novel, Of Mice and Men has also received negative attention attributed to controversial themes that make up parts of the novel. According to Censored Books: Critical Viewpoints, some of the main reasons that people may object to Of Mice and Men can be linked to the portrayal of low class characters, vulgar language, sexual implications, and implied criticism of the social system. However, others believe that Of Mice and Men is an important American novel that contains and demonstrates several characteristics of distinguished literary work students should know. Arthur Applebee states in his book Book-Length Works Taught in High School English Courses that Of Mice and Men “reflects what schools specifically value as the foundation of the students’ literary experience”. Despite the opinions of those who support Of Mice and Men, a lot of parents and community members still believe that if the novel is not to be taken out of the educational system completely, the book should at least be censored. According to The Students’ Right to Know, Of Mice and Men is number 3 on the list of 22 most frequently cited literary works for censorship. Regardless of opinion, controversy has surrounded this novel due to several factors and therefore has been widely debated in the educational system by numerous advocates and opponents of the book. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 205.133.211.136 (talk) 15:51, 24 April 2015 (UTC)

Adding Gender Oppression to the "Themes" Section

I would like to add gender to the list of oppression themes. The women characters in Of Mice and Men are portrayed as whores; the only women in the novel are the prostitutes at Susy’s place and Curley’s wife. At Susy’s place, the men can get a “flop” (have sexual intercourse) when they go into town in search of a good time Curley’s wife is not depicted kindly; she is not even given a name. Curley’s wife suffers under the traditional gender roles that are strictly followed during her time. She cannot follow her dream when asked to join some actors because he mother says that she is too young and blames her mother for the acting career that never developed for her. She then marries Curley because she sees no other future for herself once her acting dream has died. In his article, “Futile Dreams and Stagnation: Politics in Of Mice and Men,” Duncan Reith writes, “Curley's wife is denied the dignity of a name, and is described as a tart and a lulu, the same name given to Slim's dog.” She is introduced to readers with the description that she is “purty,” but she “got the eye” and is a “tart.” From her makeup and hair choices to her flirtatious attitude, Steinbeck makes it clear that Curley’s wife is to be perceived as a “tart.” However, the reader never learns that she has committed any acts of adultery; the “tart” view is based solely on assumptions.

Source: Reith, Duncan. “Futile Dreams and Stagnation: Politics in Of Mice and Men.” The English Review. 15.2 (November 2004): 1-3. Web. 18 March 2015.

Sounds like a good idea. Obotlig ☣ ^interrogate 05:18, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

I also agree 46.254.224.157 (talk) 13:06, 9 June 2015 (UTC)AH

Plot summary - Carlson

Although Carlson is mentioned in characters section, IMO it would be good to introduce him the the plot summary section, before he is suddenly introduced at the end. Perhaps in the part where Candy's dog is mentioned, something like "was killed by the ranch-hand Carlson due to its". I'm not adding anything myself as it would probably be better for someone more familiar with the book to handle. I have found it does happen on occassion that characters randomly appear in plot summaries when you have no idea who they are, how the relate the story etc but it sounds like you should; I guess because people writing the summaries are familiar enough with the subject matter they understandably miss what may be jarring to a reader unfamiliar. Nil Einne (talk) 12:20, 20 January 2016 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 25 November 2016

"Slim gives a puppy to Lennie and Candy, who's loyal, accomplished sheep dog was put down by fellow ranch-hand Carlson."

In this sentence, "who's" is incorrect syntax. It should be "whose" to indicate possession.

Thus this sentence should be:

"Slim gives a puppy to Lennie and Candy, whose loyal, accomplished sheep dog was put down by fellow ranch-hand Carlson." 74.88.238.7 (talk) 05:31, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

 Done Thanks for pointing that out - Arjayay (talk) 09:02, 25 November 2016 (UTC)

Bindlestiff?

The article states that Steinbeck spent time as a bindlestiff (hobo) in the 1920s, but the WP article on Steinbeck does not back this up. It says he spent the 1920s at Stanford, then writing in New York, then working at Lake Tahoe -- hardly the life of a hobo, and not at all like the life of the characters in this novella. In his youth, Steinbeck worked alongside migrant workers, but he was not himself a migrant worker, and anyway there is a big difference between a migrant farm worker and a hobo.UnvoicedConsonant (talk) 19:29, 23 September 2017 (UTC)

I made the change to reflect the aboveUnvoicedConsonant (talk) 17:40, 8 October 2017 (UTC)

Minor edit request on 19 February 2018

Under 'Reception,' the last word should be 'Britain,' not 'England,' as the cited article is talking about British literature, not literature from England, and there is a politically significant difference. Freespirit456 (talk) 08:41, 19 February 2018 (UTC)

Dr.radi (talk) 08:47, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

 Done L293D (☎ • ✎) 13:57, 31 May 2018 (UTC)

Characterization

Where is it actually affirmed by the narrative that Lennie Small is mentally disabled beyond indication of nature? — Preceding unsigned comment added by 172.91.221.150 (talk) 18:25, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

In the time of the story, the study of field of Mental Disability was in a much cruder form than it is today. Based on his description, Lennie would have been considered (to use the terminology of that day) "retarded". Steinbeck did not attempt to name Lennie's condition, he merely described what people might see in such a person. A formal psychiatric evaluation of the character is superfluous; and since he is a fictional person, it's futile. Mediatech492 (talk) 21:22, 7 December 2018 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 17 December 2018

Please change

Of Mice and Men was adapted by Donna Franceschild as a radio play directed by Kirsty Williams starring David Tennant broadcast on BBC Radio 4 on 7 March 2010.[38]

to

Of Mice and Men was adapted by Donna Franceschild as a radio play directed by Kirsty Williams starring David Tennant and Richard Madden broadcast on BBC Radio 4 on 7 March 2010.[38] 95.147.42.179 (talk) 17:48, 17 December 2018 (UTC)

Not done, he co-stars. WelpThatWorked (talk) 01:01, 23 December 2018 (UTC)

Sorry I don't understand. Are you saying that Madden should not be listed because he plays a character that isn't one of the two principles? My suggestion was based on the fact that Madden is now much more well-known. More than Liam Brennan I'd argue, even though Brennan does play one of the principles. Please clarify. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 95.147.42.145 (talk) 07:17, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

The fact that a particular actor is prominent in other works is irrelevant. If he plays a lesser roll then he gets lesser billing. That's show biz. Mediatech492 (talk) 07:49, 3 January 2019 (UTC)

Stable ‘buck’?

The character Crooks is described as a ‘stable buck’. The term ‘buck’ is an offensive term for black men. If would be better quoted:

Lennie wanders into the stable, and chats with Crooks, the bitter, yet educated “stable buck”, who is isolated from the other workers due to being black.

That properly conveys the idea that the term is taken from the book, not used as though it were acceptable modern English. If it’s not used in the book, obviously, it should be replaced with “stable hand”. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 66.183.74.212 (talk) 17:40, 17 January 2020 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 2 June 2020

In the ‘Development’ section of the page, it says (to paraphrase), that a main emphasis of ‘Of Mice and Men’ is dreams. I would like to make the writing clearer and replace the word ‘dreams’ with ‘hopes’ or ‘aspirations’. 2600:1011:B15B:B0E0:2CBE:5827:3B6B:7F5C (talk) 18:55, 2 June 2020 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. Galendalia Talk to me ^{CVU Graduate} 19:46, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

The wrong Liam Brennan

The wrong Liam Brennan is wikilinked in the Adaptations:Radio subsection. 87.75.117.183 (talk) 17:13, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

Dream Clarification under Themes

Steinbeck emphasizes the illusion of the American dream throughout the book and its impossibility for society’s minorities including females, blacks, migrants, disabled and the elderly. Steinbeck characters have deficiencies, resulting in discrimination against them; such as Lennie’s mental disability, Crooks’ alienation due to race, and Curley’s wife’s gender leading to her objectification, so restricting her from fulfilling her dream of fame and freedom. The characters’ final disposition expresses Steinbeck’s opinion: the “American dream” is only for a select few. — Preceding unsigned comment added by Lalare (talk • contribs) 22:24, 10 March 2020 (UTC)

Absolutely anyone can dream, but only a select few get to realise their dream. It was always the case and always will be. That is surely the point. 87.75.117.183 (talk) 16:35, 11 July 2020 (UTC)

These paragraphs should probably be labeled in order to help people find the theme they want to look into quicker.Gmora1011 (talk) 17:55, 22 April 2021 (UTC)

References

Semi-protected edit request on 26 April 2021

When writing Of Mice and Men, John Steinbeck had many elements of sexism in his writing that interfered with attaining the American Dream. Due to circumstances such as economic downfall of the Great Depression and sexism, difficulties arise when Curley’s wife tries to achieve her goals. You see in Steinbeck’s description of Curley’s wife that she is depicted more of an object than a human being. The fact that the reader does not know the character’s name, but just goes by Curley’s wife shows the sense possession by her husband. Curley’s wife was also treated very poorly by her husband (Steinbeck 80). The sexism that is displayed in this story gets in the way of her goal of reaching her American Dream. Curley’s wife’s dream was to be a movie actress. She has held on to this dream ever since a man once told her he would put her in a movie and then never heard back from him. Since then, she has never let it go. Deep down her dream lies with the idea of leaving her husband, Curley. Because of the struggle with sexism and the need for a man at this time, she cannot reach her goal of becoming a movie actress (Goldhurst 12).

Goldhurst, William. "Of Mice and Men: John Steinbeck’s Parable of The Curse Of Cain." Western American Literature, vol. 6 no. 2, 1971, p. 123-136

Steinbeck, John. Of Mice and Men. New York, N.Y., U.S.A: Penguin Books, 1994. Gpmathews1999 (talk) 00:58, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

 Not done: it's not clear what changes you want to be made. Please mention the specific changes in a "change X to Y" format and provide a reliable source if appropriate. HoneycrispApples (talk) 01:15, 26 April 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 28 April 2021

Please change -

Slim: A "jerkline skinner," the main driver of a mule team and the "prince of the ranch". Slim is greatly respected by many of the characters and is the only character whom Curley treats with respect. His insight, intuition, kindness and natural authority draw the other ranch hands automatically towards him, and he is significantly the only character to fully understand the bond between George and Lennie.

To - Slim: A "jerkline skinner," the main driver of a mule team and the "prince of the ranch". Slim is greatly respected by many of the characters and is the only character whom Curley treats with respect. His insight, intuition, kindness and natural authority draw the other ranch hands automatically towards him, and he is significantly the only character to fully understand the bond between George and Lennie. Slim is considered the “Übermensch” of this story by the god-like descriptions of Slim that he is the one that knows best out of the cast.

Please change - Crooks: Crooks, the black stable-hand, gets his name from his crooked back. Proud, bitter, and cynical, he is isolated from the other men because of the color of his skin. Despite himself, Crooks becomes fond of Lennie, and though he claims to have seen countless men following empty dreams of buying their own land, he asks Lennie if he can go with them and hoe in the garden.

To- Crooks: the black stable-hand, gets his name from his crooked back. Proud, bitter, and cynical, he is isolated from the other men because of the color of his skin. Despite himself, Crooks becomes fond of Lennie, and though he claims to have seen countless men following empty dreams of buying their own land, he asks Lennie if he can go with them and hoe in the garden. Crooks is a more relatable individual who sees things from a more rational and human perspective.

(In addition to Themes, these are possible additions) Of Mice and Men can be associated with the idea that inherent limitations exist and despite all the squirming and struggling, sometimes the circumstances of one's existence limits their capacity to live the fairy tale lives they wish to. Even the title of the novel itself references this “the title is, of course, a fragment from the poem lay Robert Burns, which gives emphasis to the idea of the futility of human endeavor or the vanity of human wishes”

Animals play a role in the story as well; the heron shifts from a beautiful part of the scenery from the beginning of the novel to a predator near the end. The ending chapter has the Heron return, preying upon snakes that get too curious in a repetitive nature, symbolic of the dreams of men constantly being snatched away. ATHwhat (talk) 06:02, 28 April 2021 (UTC)

 Note: for "Slim" add "Slim is considered the "Übermensch" of this story by the god-like descriptions of Slim that he is the one that knows best out of the cast."

 Note: for "Crooks" add "Crooks is a more relatable individual who sees things from a more rational and human perspective."

All done! Thank you for your contributions. The themes additions were added at the end of the section. TGHL ↗ 15:48, 29 April 2021 (UTC)

References

I will be answering the article evaluation question, "how can this article be improved?"

I believe the biggest way in which this article could be improved would be if the notes which say "further explanation needed" and "clarification needed" could be resolved. Additionally, there are a few citation problems which could be resolved. First off, there are a few missing citations and links to pages that don't exist. Also, a couple of the sources are other Wikipedia articles. Since these other Wikipedia articles should themselves be citing some other source, perhaps we should credit the sources that these other Wikipedia articles are referencing. It would be an improvement if the information from these sources was verified and credit was given to all sources that were cited. Shareblaw (talk) 04:52, 6 October 2021 (UTC)

Semi-protected edit request on 10 May 2022

Add a paragraph to the "Stage" section of "Adoptations":

A ballet adaptation was created by Cathy Marston with original music by Thomas Newman. It debuted on April 27th at the Joffrey Ballet in Chicago.

Citations: https://www.chicagotribune.com/entertainment/theater/reviews/ct-ent-mice-and-men-joffrey-ballet-review-20220428-4legte3aoffknfndofe32vtwfe-story.html and https://joffrey.org/season-and-tickets/2021-2022-season/of-mice-and-men-and-serenade/ AIUvf98viubhb (talk) 15:16, 10 May 2022 (UTC)

 Done ;; Maddy ♥︎(they/she)♥︎ :: talk  10:13, 29 May 2022 (UTC)