Talk:Kanso Yoshida

Sources

• [1] mentions a 1962 Liverpool Echo interview. — Preceding unsigned comment added by EEng (talk • contribs) 02:26, 2 April 2016‎

• This says he was in the merchant navy, not the military, and died in 1960. However, I've now checked official death records, which confirm that his death was registered in Liverpool in the first quarter of 1973, and give a birth date of 31 July 1895. All the records I've seen, by the way, give his name as Kanso Yoshida, and suggest to me that (assuming he meets notability criteria, which I think is highly debatable), the article should be titled under his real name not his "Paddy Murphy" nickname. And, incidentally, giving someone the description "Liverpudlian" is also dubious - essentially the word is slang (though widely used), and not really encyclopedia-worthy as a disambiguator. Ghmyrtle (talk) 08:49, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• Liverpudlian is (saith OED) no more slang than is Oxonian.
• While little is known about him, coverage is more than significant.
• Re article title, WP:COMMONNAME, which has nothing to do with "records" but much more with e.g. news coverage.
• I wondered re navy vs. merchant navy myself, and I've added your source on that point, despite its error on death date.

EEng 14:00, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

• "..came to Liverpool in 1912...". Ghmyrtle (talk) 16:22, 2 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, as Ghmyrtle says, that is dreadful slang. Perhaps we should rename the article "Paddy Murphy (Randy Scouse Git)"? Martinevans123 (talk) 14:38, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Contested deletion

This article should not be speedily deleted for lack of asserted importance, because the subject is reported by a number of reliable sources. Many people change their name, but far fewer are written about, at some length, in books and newspapers. --Martinevans123 (talk) 20:26, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

I don't agree that they are written about at any length in reliable sources. Someone who is simply a local character - and mainly notable for allegedly changing their name in a supposedly humorous way, although in fact there is no evidence that it was anything other than a nickname - is not notable. There were tens of thousands of people of foreign origin in Liverpool in the late 19th / early 20th centuries - why is this one special enough for their own article? Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:29, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

And they were all cousins of Emperor Hirohito? Martinevans123 (talk) 20:34, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

No, but notability is not inherited. And he was "a second cousin by marriage"... not a cousin. Ghmyrtle (talk) 20:50, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

Then you don't seem to know what "cousin" means. If you want we can say cousin-in-law but even that's not necessary. I see someone's taken care of the problem, so further discussion need not detain us. I suggest again (as I did already elsewhere) that you review WP:A7. EEng 21:11, 3 April 2016 (UTC)

His name in the article

"For people who are best known by a pseudonym, the legal name should usually appear first in the article, followed closely by the pseudonym. Follow this practice even if the article itself is titled with the pseudonym:" There is no dispute that his name was Kanso Yoshida, and he used - or was called by - the nickname Paddy Murphy. As this source (bizarrely, the only one linked as a source in the article) says, "Paddy Murphy was the nickname of... Kanso Yoshida." In the article - if it stays - we should predominantly use his real name, in reporting things that relate to him as a real person. There is no evidence, for example, that he used the name Murphy in any official dealings, and every source that I have seen gives his name as Kanso Yoshida. So, that is the name that we should predominantly use in the article - except, obviously, when discussing his nickname. Ghmyrtle (talk) 07:47, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Looks like you may be right for once. EEng 09:04, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Yes, this calls for a celebration.Martinevans123 (talk) 09:09, 10 April 2016 (UTC)

Requested move 2 November 2016

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Consensus is weak, but exists for the title Kanso Yoshida. While the current title seems to be somewhat of a status quo, much of the discussion was not in favor of retaining it (non-admin closure) — Andy W. (talk) 02:56, 16 November 2016 (UTC)

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Paddy Murphy (Liverpudlian) → Paddy Murphy (seaman) – We do not disambiguate by where people come from or live; we disambiguate by what they do. In any case, Murphy was not a Liverpudlian. He just lived in Liverpool. I have already tried to move it, but it was moved back with the comment "no, this was better: his primary significance is that he lived in England (specifically Liverpool)". Nobody is significant just for living in England or in Liverpool. He is actually significant for being a relative of the Japanese Emperor who lived in England and served in the British Merchant Navy. Where he lived in England is utterly irrelevant to his notability. -- Necrothesp (talk) 13:21, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• Support. This article shouldn't exist at all, but, as it does, we may as well use a more correct title. Even better, I'd support a move to Kanso Yoshida. Ghmyrtle (talk) 14:45, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

I'm fine with that too. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:50, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• Comment. Your argument above seems very reasonable, but suggests Paddy Murphy (relative of the Japanese Emperor)? Martinevans123 (talk) 15:19, 2 November 2016 (UTC)
• Oppose Crikey, the things people fuss about. The OP's claim that " We do not disambiguate by where people come from or live; we disambiguate by what they do" is nonsense. What WP:QUALIFIER says is:

The disambiguator is usually a noun indicating what the person is noted for being in his or her own right. In most cases these nouns are standard, commonly used tags such as "(musician)" and "(politician)".

The subject "is noted for" having been a Liverpudlian (specifically one who was, unusually, related to the Japanese emperor) not for having been a seaman. Paddy Murphy (relative of the Japanese Emperor) is even more on point, but way too awkward. It's true that QUALIFIER discourages capitalized disambiguators, but it's a weak discouragement, as immediately after the text above the same guideline goes on to give the examples Roger Taylor (Queen drummer) and Roger Taylor (Duran Duran drummer).

As for the suggestion Kanso Yoshida, that's a nonstarter, as article titles are supposed to be the name by which the subject is commonly known, and that's clearly Paddy Murphy (plus whatever disambiguator). EEng 21:43, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

He is definitely not "noted for having being a Liverpudlian." The only reason he has an article is because he was given a jokey nickname that some people find amusing. If he had always been known, by everyone, as Kanso Yoshida, he would not be notable (there were plenty of other seamen in Liverpool, from all over the world), and he would not have an article. Ghmyrtle (talk) 21:54, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• The only reason he has an article is because he was given a jokey nickname that some people find amusing.

No, he took the name himself, and not as a joke (as you would know if you read the article).

• If he had always been known, by everyone, as Kanso Yoshida, he would not be notable (there were plenty of other seamen in Liverpool, from all over the world)

You may or may not be right about that, but it doesn't matter. What matters is that sources took note of him, and specifically in the context of his life in Liverpool.

Your failure to get the article deleted seems to weigh unusually heavily on you, but I'm afraid you'll just have to adjust to the reality. EEng 22:11, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

It doesn't "weigh heavily" on me, but I find the never-ending stereotyping of people from Liverpool as "wacky scousers", always good for a laff, a little tiring, at best. Ghmyrtle (talk) 22:59, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Yea, ano mate. Turn yur bach fur a minud, an dis article'll be up on brichs. Martinevans123 (talk) 23:10, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

So that's what all this is about, is it? Since the key sources are a prominent native Liverpudlian and a scholarly work on Liverpudlian history and culture, that seems a bit far-fetched. As for me, the last time I got such a crackpot accusation was when someone called me a "Catalan separatist". EEng 02:23, 3 November 2016 (UTC)

Can't believe there's such a fuss over some seaman from Liverpool. Martinevans123 (talk) 22:31, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

That's truly awful, yet I'm trying to figure out how to make use of it on my userpage. EEng 22:57, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

Yay!! Arrogant Worms anyone? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:07, 2 November 2016 (UTC)

• Move to Kanso Yoshida https://www.google.com/search?tbo=p&tbm=bks&q=%22Kanso+Yoshida%22&num=10 as @Ghmyrtle: In ictu oculi (talk) 08:54, 3 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support move to another main title header that is capable of attaining consensus. Any of the following: Paddy Murphy (Emperor Hirohito's relative), Paddy Murphy (seaman), Paddy Murphy (Kanso Yoshida) or Kanso Yoshida would receive my support. —Roman Spinner (talk)(contribs) 02:55, 5 November 2016 (UTC)
• Support either Kanso Yoshida or Paddy Murphy (seaman). Probably a slight preference for "Kanso Yoshido" per WP:NATURALDIS and the fact that this source (and others) primarily uses the Japanese name; "Paddy Murphy" is described as a nickname. Either way the present title isn't ideal; per WP:D, disambiguation should be non-unique, and few if any other articles use "Liverpudlian", even in Category:People from Liverpool. I'd also worry that some readers may not recognize the demonym "Liverpudlian".--Cúchullain ^t/c 22:52, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

• I guess "Paddy (Scouser)" is out of the question, then?? Martinevans123 (talk) 23:03, 15 November 2016 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.