Talk:Historical quarters of Paris

Map?

This page would benefit from a map of some kind —Preceding unsigned comment added by 86.143.80.204 (talk • contribs)

Agreed, even a rough visual guide would be useful. Kelvingreen (talk) 12:16, 11 May 2020 (UTC)

Les Champs-Élysées

I read

Easily Paris' most touristic avenue, and almost every commerce along its entire length between the rond-point des Champs-Élysées and its Arc de Triomphe is geared to nothing else. The buildings above the street-side boutiques are for the most part Paris offices or residences for businesses the world over. The streets behind the Avenue and in the neighbourhood surrounding are filled with Haussmanian buildings of large standing that host some offices, but are largely residential.

In the 8th arrondissment I read "In 1999, the population was only 39,314, while the arrondissment contained 171,444 jobs." How copme these street located in some of most expensive area of Paris center of Paris CBd can be largely residencial. I know this area and the reality is The streets behind the Avenue and in the neighbourhood surrounding are filled with Haussmanian buildings of large standing that host some residence, but are largely dominated by office Minato ku (talk) 01:29, 20 July 2008 (UTC)

Most of Paris' buildings host in their majority residences. If you would like to polemicate unto which degree certain buildings host businesses more than residences, and on top of that until what distance such buildings at what distance from the aforementioned avenues should qualify, then go ahead - but compared to most of the other capitals of the world, Paris itself is largely residential, and this is not a detail that should be neglected. THEPROMENADER 18:10, 21 July 2008 (UTC)

I didn't speak of the whole inner Paris but of the district around the Champs Elysées. It is easy to see that the district around the Champs Elysees is dominated by office. 4,614 inhabitants for 1.14 km². It is a lower residencial density than the whole Greater London, weird for one of most densely built area of Paris. Minato ku (talk) 11:58, 8 May 2010 (UTC)

The article scope

Hello, after this discussion on Talk:Paris, I would like to be a little more explicit.

The article is well-informed and interesting, but its title implies that all Parisian quarters should be described, not only the quarters in central Paris. Unless I miss something, the article currently says nothing about the peripheral quarters that were annexed by Paris in 1860 (except the highly touristical Montmartre), i.e. approximately 50 % of Paris. So many things could (should) be added to reflect what Paris really is : the Paris Chinatown, Belleville, the 16th district, Bois de Boulogne et de Vincennes, 1960s-1970s high rise quarters, 21st-century quarters (Paris Rive Gauche, maybe even the Batignolles project although it's a little early), etc. I may do it myself one of these days. About La Défense: if the article is also about the suburbs, then many other places should be mentioned as well... Seudo (talk) 20:57, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, in Paris' periphery there were once entire villages in the communes annexed in 1860 (Vaugirard, Grenelle, Montrouge, Belleville, etc.), but few of these have remained distinct quarters - Montmartre and Belleville (although transformed into a sort of bohemian Chinatown) come to mind… Grenelle (around Charles-Michel at least) has retained some of its former distinction, and Passy and Auteuil have also maintained some of their 'local village' quarter spirit as well… and the faubourg-St.-Antoine… hm. Batignolles was also a village of its own. What (other) quarters do you think are worthy of mention?THEPROMENADER 21:26, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Nothing wrong with mentioning suburban quarters as long as they are indicated as such (Clignancourt and Montreuil for their flea markets and artist movements (Montreuil particularly). St. Denis is another… and what a market. THEPROMENADER 21:26, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, it should probably cover all as you say. Quarters vs Quartiers though, I was under the impression it was Quartiers, it is in other French world cities I believe.♦ Dr. Blofeld 21:08, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The French word is quartier indeed. But, contrary to the arrondissements, the quarters described it are not official at all (except the 80 official quartiers, which have no practical use and should not be used as a reference), so maybe it would be more natural to use a standard English-language word? Seudo (talk) 21:21, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

True that quartiers would conflict with official administrative quarters (four in each arrondissement). I actually looked up 'quarters' to see if its 'common usage' fits: "a part of a town or city having a specific character or use.". THEPROMENADER 21:29, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

What quarters to cover?

Just making a list… let's put our heads together. For clarity I think it would be simpler to add/make changes to the list if there's something missing/wrong and add a 'content comment' of what should be described there.THEPROMENADER 23:54, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

The Central Islands

L'île de la Cité

-existing

L'île Saint-Louis

-existing

La Rive Droite

Châtelet-Les-Halles / Hôtel de Ville

-existing

Le Louvre / Palais Royal

-existing

Opéra / Place Vendôme

-existing but add Place Vendome info

Faubourg Saint-Honoré / Avenue Montaigne

-existing - extract from 'Saint-Honoré / Place Vendôme / Concorde' and 'Champs-Élysées'

- add some details about Avenue de Montaigne's role as part of the Luxury district (and its recent decline? It's fading quite quietly…) THEPROMENADER 20:22, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Should this be broken up? THEPROMENADER 23:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Place Vendôme and Concorde are not large enough for a quarter, and rue Saint-Honoré has no real identity. Faubourg Saint-Honoré (west to Rue Royale) has an identity (luxury), but it should be described with the avenue Montaigne and the Champs-Élysées. Concorde itself could be attached to the Champs-Élysées and Place Vendôme to Opéra.Seudo (talk) 12:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

I do think that the Champs-Élysées has a character quite different than Montaigne and Faubourg-Saint-Honoré - I know that the Champs-Élysées is between the two - but yes it is quite logical to group Concorde with the latter avenue. Other than a couple grand hotels and the aviator's club, the Concorde is not much of a quarter - in fact, I don't think it should even be mentioned as one. THEPROMENADER 20:22, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Les Champs-Élysées

-existing

Montmartre / Pigalle

-existing + Mix of sex shops, concert halls, music shops and 'hipster' cafés THEPROMENADER 23:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

It is already described in the Montmartre / Bas-de-Montmartre quarter (which may be renamed as 'Montmartre and Pigalle'). Seudo (talk) 12:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Yes, and 'Bas de Montmartre' is most likely an antiquated term today anyway. THEPROMENADER 06:47, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

merge two sections

(parc) Monceau

- is pretty representative of Haussmann-era Paris renovations, and still has much of its original residential architecture. THEPROMENADER

Republique / Grands Boulevards

- Although lacking themselves any definite character (chain restaurants and bars (Indiana Café, Oz's, Hard Rock Café, etc)?), it is a bit of a theatre area… there are one… two… three major theatres I can think of right now, plus the Rex movie theatre and other cinemas… THEPROMENADER 20:35, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Gare de l'Est / Gare du Nord

-existing

Should 'Sentier' be stuck in there too? That quarter is better known for its (professional-only) 'grossistes' (mostly Chinese today), rather than its character - but it's still a quarter, isn't it?THEPROMENADER 17:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

I would not relate Sentier to Gare de l'Est et Gare du Nord, but to Les Halles or to Marais, since it is located more or less along Rue Réaumur. Or maybe it can be described as a quarter of its own. Seudo (talk) 20:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

@Seudo, just an addition to your contribution earlier today (not sure whether it's worthy of inclusion or not): The Indian immigration in that area began in the 1950's when the French trade colony in Pondichéri (Pondicherry) was reunited with India - they were given French Nationality and chose to move to that area (especially around the passage Brady). The 'rest' of the spread until the Gare du Nord (Pakistani cum Indian) attached itself to the above from the 1970's when France began to loosen its immigration laws.

I Didn't add it because I have a thing about 'footprinting' other contributors' edits just after they make them… many do that and I find it quite rude. Anyhow, I'm not quite ready to start editing yet anyway - too many distractions to take care of the referencing part properly. THEPROMENADER 17:25, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

Feel free to add these information, I don't think it's rude at all! I wrote mostly according to the current state of this quarter... Seudo (talk) 20:36, 2 September 2013 (UTC)

There was once an editor who made it a point to follow my edit history and 'stomp' every one of my contributions with a revert/edit for trivial reasons (or none at all); that experience must have stuck with me.

My 'fleshing out' thought was useful, because on second thought it seems logical that we work first on the article structure (with minimum detail) with inclusion into the main Paris article in mind; that done, we can save it (to a sandbox?) and 'flesh out' the content here before 'activating' the sandbox version with a link to this article. THEPROMENADER 06:44, 3 September 2013 (UTC)

Sentier

- ad per comments above THEPROMENADER 06:48, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Place de Clichy / Batignolles

- not sure if these two nuts go into the same shell either, but the latter (former commune) still has much of its 19th-century 'factory-urban-development' scheme (low-cost villas for factory workers)… it's kind of a 'zone' behind/between Montmartre and the 'Beaux quartiers' of the lower 17th. THEPROMENADER 21:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Goutte d'Or/Barbès Rochechouart

Origins as a gate of Paris (Barbès) and of the 19th-century 'X' building development (Goutte), ambiance… but shouldn't this be merged with 'Bas de Montmartre'? THEPROMENADER 08:15, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

No, Goutte d'Or and Barbès (and rue Poulet) have a strong identity, linked to African immigration. Seudo (talk) 12:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

Passy / Auteuil

- but didn't we mention this already? THEPROMENADER 21:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Quai de la Gare

- there's quite a bit of 'arty' thinks happening in that area worthy of mention. THEPROMENADER 20:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Bercy

- The old wine port now 'faux-village' and the concert/sporting events hall…THEPROMENADER 20:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

La Villette

- …or 'life around the canal' - lots of 'hipster' (ex-'bohemian') places around there, stretching all the way to La Cité des Sciences (and nyanyanyaIforget 'de la Musique'), the La Villette hall (Paris' former abattoirs) and fountain (formerly at place de la République or 'place de la Fontaine' as it was called then)… but the 'hipster' spirit of that quarter also fades into Belleville. THEPROMENADER 21:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Le Marais

-existing

La Rive Gauche

the Latin Quarter

merge Saint-Germain-des-Prés / Faubourg Saint-Germain / Odéon / Saint-Michel THEPROMENADER 17:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

And add things about Panthéon, Montorgueil Mouffetard, etc. Seudo (talk) 12:13, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

(Montorgueil? Probably an oversight) THEPROMENADER 20:25, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

I meant Mouffetard. I always mistake one street for the other... Seudo (talk) 06:34, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Doh! How could I forget Mouffetard (and I live 150m from it)? Do you really think that street is part of the Latin quarter though? I'd almost include it with Gobelins (the former tissue trade quarter around the former Bièvre river) THEPROMENADER 08:58, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

I think it's difficult to separate this street from the nearby educational institutions and the Montagne Sainte-Geneviève. Its atmosphere of small restaurants, bars and semi-pedestrian narrow streets is typical of other small streets in the Latin Quarter. It's very different from the Avenue des Gobelins, transformed by Haussmann into one of these wide avenues you can find everywhere in Paris. But on the other hand, you were right 160 years ago: my Lazare Brothers' Dictionnaire des rues de Paris (1844) says that rue Mouffetard goes up to the 'barrière d'Italie' (place d'Italie), which may have given it its name (Mont Cetard)... Seudo (talk) 10:00, 31 August 2013 (UTC)

Invalides / École Militaire / Eiffel Tower / Quai d'Orsay

-existing

Is this too 'vast'? The rue de Grenelle (residential street, embassies) begins there as well. THEPROMENADER 23:48, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Grenelle / (rue de) Commerce

- Perhaps not just Beaugrenelle, but 'Grenelle / (rue de) Commerce'? THEPROMENADER 20:49, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Alésia / Montsouris ?

- Not sure if the two should be grouped… THEPROMENADER 20:56, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Montparnasse / Denfert-Rochereau

-existing

Butte aux Cailles

Mention of its origins as a vineyard and sandstone mine site (bought by Pierre Caille in the 16th century, thus its name); description of its many small 'village-y' bars and restaurants. + link to the main article THEPROMENADER 17:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

place d'Italie - porte d'Italie/porte d'Ivry

- Mention of its origins as a Paris gateway; description of its 1970's asian immigration and modern architecture. + links to the Place d'Italie, Chinatown, Paris and Les Olympiades articles THEPROMENADER 08:15, 29 August 2013 (UTC)

- I changed the title - noone refers to this area as 'Chinatown' (although it's obvious) and I think the above describes pretty well the quarter 'triangle'. THEPROMENADER 07:13, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

- Done by Seudo

Cité Universitaire

- …is kind of a quarter unto itself and quite particular. THEPROMENADER 21:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Key Suburbs

La Défense business district

-existing

Saint-Denis

-Basilica Saint-Denis (relation with Paris' history, etc), market and village THEPROMENADER 23:45, 27 August 2013 (UTC)

Levallois-Perret

- this suburb used to be a centre for Paris' publishing industry (Magazine head offices, photo studios)… is it still? THEPROMENADER 21:17, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

Chart of the eighty quartiers of Paris

Comments

Good idea, a map showing all the 80 would be very useful.♦ Dr. Blofeld 07:56, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The section (table) exists already, but maps are for sure needed here! Citations as well… lot of work to do. Sorry for my earlier laziness ; ( THEPROMENADER 09:35, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Maps of quartiers for each arrondissement exist in Commons. I have categorized the ones I found: http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/Category:Administrative_quartiers_of_Paris . But frankly, I wouldn't devote much time about this... Seudo (talk) 10:54, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

The following names come to my mind: Butte aux Cailles, Paris Chinatown/Olympiades, Goutte d'Or, Belleville/Ménilmontant, Auteuil/Passy, Beaugrenelle, Paris Rive Gauche... All of these neighborhoods have a distinct personality that any Parisian could describe, even if they do not necessarily conform to what non-Parisian see as Paris... And I'm not speaking about micro-quarters like Mouzaia, Charonne, Oberkampf, etc.

You should also add the most famous « quartier » of all: the Latin Quarter... which could replace your Odéon / Saint-Michel and Saint-Germain-des-Prés quarters. Seudo (talk) 11:12, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Of course, the Latin quarter… doh! Do please add to/change the list yourselves, that's what it's there for! THEPROMENADER 16:45, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Just a note: I think historical context should be kept to a minimum here: in adding the 'Butte-aux-Cailles' comment above, there were many things that could be mentioned - the now-extinct river Bièvre and its 13th-century (and onwards) tissue/tannery trades, the 18th-century Montgolfière landing, the 19th-century artesian well, etc… - but I think it would be clearer if this article focused on the quarter's modern role, and the history kept in the quarter's own article if the reader is interested in that angle. THEPROMENADER 17:09, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

Good lord that sounded pretentious, the above is but my opinion… . History angle, or not history angle? THEPROMENADER 23:46, 28 August 2013 (UTC)

On second thought, I'm going to contradict myself: perhaps historic info ~would~ be useful here because, as far as I know, not every Paris quarter has its own article yet. Besides, where else (other than in the 'main' quarter article that may or may not exist) can we talk about the history of each quarter? Certainly not in the Paris article itself. THEPROMENADER 12:47, 30 August 2013 (UTC)

On third thought, the Paris-article content should be from a 'today' point of view (and contain 'today' facts), but this article can go totally historic if it wants to. Just a suggestion. THEPROMENADER 07:17, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

I'm also thinking about what order to place the quarters… the 'arrondissement order' is cumbersome because of the Left Bank/Right Bank separation (and the result would be incomprehensible to a reader unfamiliar with Paris): the best method I could come up with 'till now is to 'fan' across each bank from a central point in Paris, placing first the innermost quarters, then those behind, then moving on to the next 'fan section'. THEPROMENADER On second thought, forget 'fan', think more 'full radar sweep'. THEPROMENADER 07:07, 4 September 2013 (UTC)

Move to 'Historical quarters of Paris'

A 'quartier' is an administrative subdivision of an arrondissement, which explains the move to Districts of Paris... but 'district' is the most acceptable translation for arrondissement.[1]

I'm planning on moving the administrative-quarter info from here to Quarters of Paris (once the modification I made to the 'infobox streets' template I made goes through (it takes a while) and I can more easily check which pages link directly there and modify them accordingly), and moving the practically-unlinked Arrondissements of Paris to Districts of Paris.

Paris' demographical terminology, often overlapping and even countering common English usage, can be complicated, but I think the above should make things much clearer. TP ✎ ✓ 19:08, 18 September 2017 (UTC)

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Arrondissements of Paris which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:45, 18 September 2017 (UTC)