Talk:Philoctetes (Sophocles play)

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This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Laurenrudewicz. Peer reviewers: Jboey.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 06:33, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Untitled

Well, it is a way to start. I know this is a page about a play, but the part I have added on medical use of readings of the play is important, and there is no real place that it may be put and refer to the play itself, so here it is. --Dumarest (talk) 19:31, 18 March 2008 (UTC)

Crippled/Disabled

Well, edit today re the use of the word 'crippled'. I think 'disabled' is fine, unless the original play actually used the word 'cripled'. Just for the information of the Wikipedian who edited the page, the term 'crippled' was introduced in about the 3rd edit to the original page, [[1]], on 2 December 2005. --Dumarest (talk) 11:20, 6 June 2008 (UTC)

Well the 'disabled' - 'crippled' argument continues. I do not know what the Greek world used, but it seems to be a point of argument here. --Dumarest (talk) 18:50, 28 July 2008 (UTC)

Suggestions for Updating

Hi all! I just wanted to list some suggestions (and resources) for updating and improving this page! I'll begin work on some of these updates myself, but I thought it would be helpful to list them all here regardless, that way they will be easier to address & prioritize for future editors.

• Change "survived the ravages of time" in the lead paragraph to "extant" -- it is more concise terminology
• Change "Festival of Dionysus" to "City Dionysia" (or "Great Dionysia"), since there were multiple festivals to Dionysus in the 5th century, such as the Lenaia, and in 409 Sophocles' play competed at the festival in Athens
• In the info box under "characters": Change "a spy" to "a trader" -- in the actual Greek, this character is called an emporos, for which the Middle Liddell gives three definitions, the lattermost being "merchant or trader" (the others being a little less straightforward, like "ship passenger" and "anyone on a journey")
• Under "Background"
  • The Heracles of Sophocles' Trachiniai is not the same Heracles of the Philoctetes -- the Heracles of the Trachiniai asks his son Hyllos to carry him up to his funeral pyre, as a dramatization of father-mother-son relationships. The Heracles of the Philoctetes is indeed the Heracles that asks Philoctetes to light his funeral pyre, and in return gived Phi. his famed bow.
    • Something that will be somewhat painstaking is distinguishing what myths Sophocles draws on to construct his tragedy, but I think citing the appropriate myths will be an extremely valuable addition to this article. Sir George James Frazer has an EXCELLENT note on these myths in his commentary for Apollodorus' Epitome -- see this resource, easy to find on perseus.tufts.edu: Apollodorus. Appollodorus, The Library, with an English Translation by Sir James George Frazer, F.B.A., F.R.S., in 2 Volumes. Cambridge, MA, Harvard University Press; London, William Heinemann Ltd. 1921. Includes Frazer's notes.
  • The last sentence says Philoctetes "was left by Odysseus on the desert island Lemnos"
    • Point of order: Philoctetes is left by Odysseus and the Atreidai (i.e. Agamemnon and Menelaus, sons of Atreus)
    • It's important to note, in mentioning the "desert island Lemnos," that this is a detail unique to Sophocles' rendition of the Philoctetes. Since Lemnos was most definitely inhabited in the 5th century, and historically is in the mythic tradition, it's weird that Sophocles specifies Lemnos as being "untrodden" -- Seth Schien's introductory commentary is a useful resource on confirming this
• Under "Story"
  • Consider changing "Story" to "Synopsis," a more technical term (also makes it easier to distinguish this section from the previous "Background" section
  • This summation of the story relies heavily on an external synopsis which does not seem to be entirely accurate or precise
    • 1st sentence of the synopsis: ambiguous "their" and "the island" -- change to "begins with the arrival of Odysseus, Neoptolemus, and the Chorus on the island Lemnos"
    • For editing the synopsis' 1st paragraph: (the resources for the Greek can be linked to the Greek text on Perseus, Odysseus explains that Philoctetes cannot be taken by force or by persuasion (as Neoptolemus suggests), but only by deception (dolos in the Greek). Odysseus appeals to Neoptolemus' honorable nature, as the son of the honorable warrior Achilles, while also redefining what acts are noble, valuing acts of the tongue or speech over physical deeds. Odysseus, then, convinces Neoptolemos to deceive Philoctetes by "telling Philoctetes that [the Atreidai gave] Odysseus his father's (Achilles') armor,which was his right by birth, and Odysseus would not give it up to him." Neoptolemus succeeds, and "After gaining Philoctetes' trust and offering him a ride home, Neoptolemus is allowed to look at the Herclean bow."
    • The trader (presumably Odysseus in disguise) enters before Neoptolemus is holding the Heraclean bow, warning Ne. and Phi. that the Atreidai are sending Odysseus to retrieve Phi. from the island, but I'm not sure where (of if) this should be included in the synopsis.
    • The second paragraph: Last sentence, "Heracles (now a deity) appears above them" may better be adapted as "Heracles descends from above as a Deus ex machina, telling Philoctetes that, etc." & Philoctetes will be cured by Asclepius at Troy
    • Last sentence of entire synopsis: I suggest either removing this sentence on Philoctetes in Troy after the events of Sophocles' play, or determine from which myth this information comes (Philoctetes is mentioned in Helen's catalogue of ships in the Illiad, but perhaps this is referencing some other source?)
• Consider eliminating "Themes and ideas" section until these concepts can be cited
  • Also, consider a title like "Critical scholarship" with subheading of the specific "themes and ideas"
• The "Theatre of War Project" and "See also" contain closely related information, may be more intuitive to place these under the heading "contemporary adaptations" and then divide them based on genre -- would also find scholarship to confirm that these contemporary adaptations are indeed drawing from Sophocles' version, especially since there are quite a few other extant depictions of Philoctetes' story, such as in Ovid's Metamorphoses!
  • That last note said, Bryan Doerries is surely drawing on Sophocles' version, espeically considering that he produced a well-received (cite with contemporary reviews) English translation of Sophocles' Philoctetes (and his translation is not listed under the "Translations" heading)
• Consider changing "Translations" heading to "English Translations" (or else provide links/references to translations which are not in English)

Hopefully these will be helpful comments to collaborators on this article, and will provide a good start for conversation on relevant improvements! --Laurenrudewicz (talk) 21:34, 16 February 2017 (UTC)

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Production question

Is there any record of modern productions (as in post-1500) of this play? Is there any information in Wikipedia of modern production of ancient Greek or Roman plays? -- llywrch (talk) 20:10, 23 February 2020 (UTC)