Talk:Plains Indian warfare

Requested move 15 November 2021

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: Snow Close - There may be a discussion to have about whether or not we should have an article about Native American warriors per se, but this is not that. (non-admin closure) FOARP (talk) 18:51, 28 November 2021 (UTC)

---

Plains Indians Warfare → Braves (Native Americans) – This was the previous, stable title, and the article seems to be going through a bit of an edit war. See Talk:Braves (Native Americans). "Plains Indians Warfare" is a poor title, which seems to have been chosen mostly because of certain editors' desire to avoid the potentially pejorative title "Braves." However, WP:COMMONNAME, WP:NPOVTITLE and WP:RGW ask us to use the most recognizable term. 162 etc. (talk) 23:42, 15 November 2021 (UTC) — Relisting. FOARP (talk) 11:20, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

See consensus discussion (not an edit war) on the Talk:Braves (Native Americans) page. "Braves" refers to an ethnic stereotype, common in 19th and early 20th century sources.Vizjim (talk) 04:50, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

The problem with this argument is that most of the incoming links are for Braves (Native Americans) and Indian brave, so that's what the article should be about. Plains Indians Warfare likely should redirect to Plains Indians#Warfare, where most of the content of this article is repeated verbatim. 162 etc. (talk) 19:03, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

Oppose, primarily per the discussion linked by Vizjim above. The discussion on that page refutes the idea that "braves" is the common name in contemporary usage. Additionally, this article discusses Great Plains warfare practices in a fairly general sense, which makes the current title feel most appropriate for the subject matter. ModernDayTrilobite (talk) 17:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

(As a digression: I do think the article should be renamed to "Plains Indian warfare". Per WP:CAPITALIZATION, "warfare" shouldn't be capitalized, and changing "Indians" to "Indian" would be an improvement along WP:NATURAL. However, when it comes to a change in the direction of "braves", I'm opposed.) ModernDayTrilobite (talk) 17:08, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

I agree with Vizjim and Trilobite. If the article title needs to be changed, change it to Plains Indian Warfare. 53zodiac (talk) 17:55, 16 November 2021 (UTC)

• Speedy close. Move back to the original titleRestore the original article, which appears to have been Brave (Native Americans), sort out the utter mess of a history and cock-up of multiple moves and redirects without discussion to illogical and poorly-constructed titles (did those moving it even bother to read article title guidelines?) and then propose a new RM. These moves have completely buggered up the page history. Experienced editors should know better than to blank a long article and redirect it to a new article. -- Necrothesp (talk) 14:41, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

That is an inaccurate summary of events. The consensus discussion was to change the page to a redirect, not to move the content. Vizjim (talk) 15:22, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

That's not how Wikipedia works and you should know that. You don't just destroy an edit history in this way. The original article should be restored and then a new RM opened. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:25, 17 November 2021 (UTC)

Walk me through how you see that working? I'm not being snide - I'd genuinely appreciate a steer on the technicalities. We start with a page named for "braves," a 19th century stereotype, but containing material that is generally well researched about Plains Indians war customs. A consensus discussion has already decided that references to "braves" should, to be accurate, point to the stereotype of Native American warriors. However, enough research has been done to allow for an article on the historical battle customs of a group of Native nations (though this article also has a lot of colonial mythology and needs a good clean up). So should the process be to request a move, and, assuming it is again a consensus agreement, then maintain the old page as a redirect to the stereotypes article? Vizjim (talk) 08:17, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

As I said, restore the original article and then request a move from that to another title. If achieved, then the original title can be redirected to what you want it to redirect to. But don't just blank it, redirect it and then transfer much of its content to a new article. That's not how it's done. Along the way, the edit history has now been completely lost. It looks like a wholly new article and it isn't. -- Necrothesp (talk) 15:20, 18 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose this is a bizarre discussion. "Braves" is an outdated / stereotypical term to refer to the participants in the warfare, so it doesn't really make sense as an article title. But there's abundant coverage of "Plains Indian warfare" in reliable sources so I think the article should be improved and expanded, as well as renamed to "Plains Indian warfare" to fix the capitalization issue. (t · c) buidhe 08:30, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

• Oppose per buidhe—blindlynx (talk) 16:29, 24 November 2021 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.