Talk:Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet

Assessment as of March 2007

Hello all, and thank you for contributing to this school site. I'm part of the Wikipedia:WikiProject_Schools/Assessment team, and I'm reviewing this page. I'm currently giving it a grade of Start on the Wikipedia 1.0 Assessment Scale and an importance of High on this importance scale.

My reasoning is as follows: This school is over 400 years old with royal charter but this article is completely uncited and needs much additional information and cleanup. Adam McCormick 05:11, 10 March 2007 (UTC)

Removing sections just because they are un-cited

The problem is that many things are hard to cite references for, e.g. "There was a legend that the headmaster in the 1640s was beheaded by the Roundheads due to his support for the Royalists. However, there is little factual evidence for this claim." was recently removed. Sections should not be removed without being added on the talk page as there citations could be added at a later date and content moved back into the article. In the above example it is possible that there is factual evidence that the claim has historically been made, despite concrete evidence to prove the potential legend correct.

It would be better to move sections to this talk page until citations can be found, instead of letting content getting lost in the edit history.Jisjustme (talk) 13:36, 12 May 2009 (UTC)

Naming of this page

Should this page be renamed? There is Queen Elizabeth's school for girls as well. --The1exile 20:39, 19 November 2005 (UTC)

Yes, there is, but for some reason all they share is the name. The schools have no relation.

Houses

Could we get up some information up about the houses? We had some on our noticeboards but it was buried under the general detrius of ugly layouts. 81.32.267.928

Start again?

This is not a very good article and appears to contain what is in effect an advertisement for the school.--IXIA 13:35, 10 July 2006 (UTC)

I think teachers have got involved. It's not neutral; containing a lot of weazel words such as "Flippant".

Also, what on earth does "Some students also feel that the school forces them to sell raffle tickets whereas a minority would rather do nothing" mean? I do not understand the placement of "whereas".

In fact it's amazing that a school with over 400 years of history can be treated in such a trivial way. I think the extract from the website should be deleted. Does anyone disagree?--IXIA 21:14, 24 July 2006 (UTC)

"Some of these sites are more flippant than others." That is an opinon. Shall I go ahead with delete?--80.42.156.230 19:14, 8 September 2006 (UTC)

Wouldn't disagree. IXIA 21:39, 14 September 2006 (UTC)

• I've removed it and done some heavy cleanup and removal of irrelevant things. By the way, a list of teacher's names is non-encyclopedic and not noteworthy for inclusion in an encylopedia

Will Self

I thought that Will Self attended QE. I know this because i attend QE. DavidJJJ 10:19, 25 August 2007 (UTC)

He said he went to QE on Have I Got News For You. (GowsiPowsi (talk) 13:17, 2 February 2008 (UTC))

Controversy Section Removed

I've removed this ENTIRE section. A whole bunch of libellous accusations with ZERO references or sources - I'm surprised the school itself hasn't contacted the wikimedia foundation to complain. Do NOT put any of this material back without solid, concrete references and sources. Exxolon (talk) 22:58, 3 March 2009 (UTC)

I'd go as far as to say vast swathes of this article should be cut. There are no citations anywhere! --79.65.56.27 (talk) 18:10, 2 April 2009 (UTC)

Look, the school had/has many failings, but it also got a lot right. The problem is, these things are opinion and not fact. Wikipedia should be about facts. If something bad had happened at the school and is note worthy, then there is bound to be a reference to it somewhere so include references. A Criticisms section should not be used as a means for disgruntled old boys to bitch and moan about the school and its teachers. There are plenty of social networking groups for that sort of thing. Whilst I agree with some criticisms (6th form entry, OFSTED obsession, favouritism/neglect by some teachers), unless complaints were made formally and en mass then there isn't grounds to include it in this article. You most definitely cannot report as fact accusations of cover ups relating to criminal activity, and even institutional theft of personal property (and yes, even if it is true). This is a very poor article, badly written, badly organised and whilst I do not suggest starting again, it requires major reform.

Citations

I have restored a citation tag - the one by the statement of listing head boys on boards in the hall. Actually this is so common a practice in this type of school it is scarcely worth mentioning in the article. However the HTML comment by the remover is worth quoting:

There is no need for a citation as was suggested as the names are physically on the board and any citation would simply cite the board

So to verify this I would need to go to the school? By this argument a whole host of stuff needs no cites - you only need to go there, ask the person involved, put a slide under your microscope, etc. This is why WP cites generally "secondary sources" - although the arguments behind the policy are a little muddled, the principle is clear: information should be verifiable from a good reference library, ideally a University library with inter-library loans scheme, or less. Rich Farmbrough, 00:56, 27 August 2009 (UTC).

I agree that "this is so common a practice in this type of school it is scarcely worth mentioning", and have removed it, and the rest of the Traditions section. Tacyarg (talk) 09:44, 25 October 2024 (UTC)

Dreadful article

This really is a dreadful article. The school has quite an interesting and rich history, stretching back over 400 years. I can appreciate that issues of current discipline and policies may be of concern to many, but they scarcely have a place in an encyclopaedia. A few years ago there was quite a lot of historical stuff, but that has mostly been deleted. IXIA (talk) 17:21, 2 November 2009 (UTC)

Notable Old Boys

In truth a number of these are not very notable. BONNUIT (talk) 21:09, 17 August 2010 (UTC)

Requested move 4 April 2015

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Harej (talk) 15:33, 21 May 2015 (UTC)

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Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School for Boys → Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet – This is the correct name of the school, as evident by the school's website --Relisted. Sunrise (talk) 00:11, 13 April 2015 (UTC) 78.147.141.18 (talk) 09:17, 4 April 2015 (UTC)

• Oppose. Nomination completely ignores WP:AT. It would also be worth having a look at WP:official names, an essay based on that policy and dealing with exactly the issues raised by this proposal. Andrewa (talk) 11:17, 12 April 2015 (UTC)
• I've compiled what the sources are saying:
  • The Independent (1992) Queen Elizabeth Boys' School in Barnet, and Queen Elizabeth Boys'
  • The Guardian (1999) Queen Elizabeth boys' school in Barnet and Queen Elizabeth boys' school
  • Daily Mail (2007) Queen Elizabeth's School in Barnet
  • The Telegraph (2007 & 2008) Queen Elizabeth's

So at this stage I would support the move, or a similar name used by the sources. Also pinging Andrewa for their thoughts on the sources I've reviewed. Stickee (talk) 01:18, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

That's one side of it, but what of the existing name? Google gives me more than 40 million ghits for "Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School for Boys" -Wikipedia [1] and the first few at least all look relevant, including a facebook page [2]. Has the school been renamed recently? If so, then the move request is at the least premature. Regardless, at the very least more evidence is required that the proposed article title is the common name, not just the correct official name, in my opinion. No change of vote for now. Andrewa (talk) 05:04, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

The facebook page mentioned isn't relevant - it refers to a school in Mansfield. Google hits alone are not a useful indicator here, given that many schools share similar names. Few, as far as I can see, call 'Queen Elizabeth's School, Barnet' the 'Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School for Boys'. I support the move The former (QE'sS, B) is the proper name and in more common use, as far as I can see, than the current QE'sGSfB title. --IxK85 (talk) 16:07, 13 April 2015 (UTC)

Good point about the facebook page.

I think that probably a valid case for a move could be made in terms of this ambiguity. I don't have time to do this myself right now. May I suggest (again) that you read WP:official names, and also have a closer look at WP:AT, the article naming policy. WP:correct is also relevant. No change of vote, as yet at least. Andrewa (talk) 04:02, 22 April 2015 (UTC)

• Support; the current title does not seem to do enough to disambiguate from the many instances of Queen Elizabeth's Grammar School. bd2412 T 17:42, 13 May 2015 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

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School Chronicle

I am moving this text here as it is excessive in the article: BE IT KNOWN that on the 24th March in the year 1573 Her Most Gracious Majesty Elizabeth, by the grace of God of England, France and Ireland Queen, Defender of the faith, did at the humble request of Robert Dudley, Earl of Leicester, grant on behalf of her faithful subjects of the town of Barnet, in the County of Hertford and Middlesex, a Charter for the erection and establishment of a common Grammar School which should be called the Free Grammar School of Queen Elizabeth, for the education, bringing up and instruction of boys and youth, in Grammar and other learning: and the same to continue for ever.

AND that funds for the building and maintenance of the said School were raised by Edward Underne, Rector of East and Chipping Barnet, and that the control and government of the said School was vested in twenty-four discreet and honest men who were to be a body corporate and to have perpetual succession, and that when any of them should die, the surviving Governors should elect other fit persons in their places, and that they should appoint the Master according to their discretion.

AND be it known that in or about the year 1587 John Lonison, Citizen and Goldsmith of London, did add to the foundation the gift of one hundred pounds for the good of the School, from the interest upon which a large proportion of its expenses were for many years borne.

AND that in and from the year 1594 John Boyle, who was subsequently Bishop of Cork, was Master, and that in or about the year 1599 his cousin Richard Boyle, who subsequently became Archbishop of Tuam, was Master.

AND that by their diligence and good discretion the School flourished, and it was ordered by the Governors that children of townsmen should be admitted upon the payment of twelve pence, and that children of others should be admitted upon the payment of two shillings, and that each scholar should be present in his appointed place in the Church upon the Sabbath day under pain of six lashes, and that the Scholars should attend the Master to the Church in an orderly manner, and not negligently nor in uncomely sort; in memory of which the Scholars of this School do to this day each year upon Founder's Day attend Church in like manner.

AND be it known that in the year 1633 Matthias Millward, Rector of Barnet, was Master, and that under his successor, George Smallwood, additional buildings were added to the School, and that in his Mastership the Governors, after careful consideration, drew up a fresh code of regulations for the government of the School, to the end that youth there placed should receive good education as well in religion and good manners as in nurture for learning.

AND that in the year 1637 the Governors made decisions to admit the first free pupils, these being four children, toties quoties, towardly and docible, of poor parents not able to disburse the set stipend, which practice of admitting free pupils is therefore continued by the School unto the present day.

AND be it known that during the great Rebellion in the reign of His Majesty King Charles I the School was noticeably loyal, and this it continued even to the extent of appointing as Master in 1654 William Sclater who had served as Cornet of Horse in the Army of His Majesty, and who upon the King's execution had suffered imprisonment and trial for his life for his steadfast adherence to the Royal Family.

AND that John Owen, Citizen and Fishmonger of London, Governor of the School, gave to the School the sum of six pounds annually, and be it also known that during the political difficulties of the reigns of James II, William and Mary, and George I, the School declined noticeably from its former prosperity, through thirty of which years from the year 1689 to the year 1719, James Barcock was Master.

AND that in the year 1754 the Reverend Humphrey Hall gave to the School the sum of one hundred pounds for the better support and maintenance of the School and for no other use or purpose whatsoever.

AND that throughout the Eighteenth Century the School failed noticeably to prosper, and that the majority of its pupils were boarders at the School for the greater profit of the Master, wherefore to them he devoted the greater part of his attention.

AND that in the year 1740 John Gray was appointed Master, he holding the position longer than any of his predecessors or successors, being Master for forty-seven years, until the year 1787, and that during this long Mastership the pupils admitted privately for the Master's profit continued to out-number the public pupils, and did so continue until the remodelling of the Foundation in the year 1873.

AND be it known that in the year 1828 William Grant Broughton, Old Elizabethan, was appointed first Archdeacon of New South Wales, subsequently to become first Bishop and Metropolitan of Australia, in commemoration of which distinguished Old Boy a yearly prize for Divinity is to this day awarded.

AND be it known that in the year 1853 the income of the Foundation was found inadequate to carry on the School and maintain the buildings, wherefore a public subscription which amounted to more than four hundred pounds was raised in Barnet, and be it known that following upon the Schools Enquiry Commission of the year 1866, and the passing of the Endowed Schools Act in the year 1869, the Scheme for the reconstruction of the School was prepared, and received the assent of Her Most Gracious Majesty Queen Victoria in the year 1873, whereby the endowment was increased by a portion of the surplus income of the local charity of Jesus Hospital and new land obtained round about the School whereon new buildings and a house for the Headmaster were erected, and that in the year 1875 the School with its new buildings and under its new Scheme of Management the Headmaster was the Reverend John Bond Lee, Master in Arts of Oxford University, he being the Headmaster in honour of whom an annual prize in Classics has been endowed and is awarded to this day.

AND be it known that during his Headmastership, in the year 1885, H.E. Chetwynd Stapylton, Chairman of the Governors, purchased for the School the Stapylton field, whereon the XI and the XV do play to this day, and that upon his retirement in the year 1906 William Lattimer, Master of Arts of Cambridge University, was appointed Headmaster, under whom, as under his predecessor, the School continued to grow in numbers and to flourish, and did so in peace and prosperity until the outbreak of the European War of 1914, and, this in perpetual honour of those who fell in this War, their contemporaries have endowed a prize to be awarded on each year to the boy who, like them most unselfishly serves the School, and that the manner in which its Scholars bore themselves during that War was testified by the memorial tablet placed in the School Hall. And that, when new buildings were erected and were opened by H.R.H. The Prince George in Michaelmas 1932, this tablet was given the place of honour in the Entrance Hall.

AND be it known that in January 1930, Ernest Harold Jenkins, Master of Arts of Oxford University, became Headmaster with the particular charge of arranging to move the School to the new buildings and with the able and enthusiastic support of the Chairman of Governors, Alderman Harold Fern, the School greatly increased, not only in numbers, but in the scope both of its learning and of its interests, so that many more University Scholarships were won than before and many successes were gained in other fields, among them the winning of the Public Schools' Athletic Cup upon several occasions.

AND be it known that in 1938 the Governors and parents provided the School with a Swimming Bath.

AND be it further known that, during the Second Great War, the School continued its work without intermission despite difficulties that were grave, since it was in an area subject to enemy attack and did in fact suffer great damage from several bombs that struck it and fell nearby in January, 1941.

AND be it known that in this War, as in the first Great War, former Scholars of the School served their country with devotion and sacrifice, and that in memory of those who fell, a further tablet was dedicated in 1948, being placed as near to the former tablet as might suitably be, both tablets being placed in the Entrance Hall to the end that each present Scholar may bear it in mind so always honourably to do.

AND be it known that in the year 1961 Timothy Edwards, Master of Arts of Oxford University was Headmaster and guided the School through the difficult period of reorganisation. He it was who caused to be built the Fern Building and under his care the numbers of boys doubled.

AND be it known that during the Headmastership of Eamonn Harris from 1984 the School flourished. Following the Education Reform Act of 1988 the Board of Governors under the leadership of Luxton Robert Heard, Old Elizabethan, successfully petitioned the Secretary of State to empower the Governors to conduct the affairs of the School in accordance with Grant Maintained Status. And that in the year 1994, the Secretary of State granted the Governors' petition for the admission of pupils by virtue of their ability and aptitude. And so by these Orders the School was restored to that independence and status spoken in its ancient title - the Free Grammar School of Elizabeth I. And that in the 425th year of the School, new buildings were erected: the Heard Building to accommodate the enlarged Sixth Form; the Friends' Music Rooms to serve the many musicians; the Clark Laboratories to provide for the growth of the sciences. And all of this was made possible by the labours and donations of parents, by a grant from the Wolfson Foundation and by further grants from Her Majesty's Government.

AND be it known that in the year 1999, John Marincowitz, Doctor of Philosophy of London University, succeeded as the 39th Headmaster. And that the Board of Governors, in accordance with the School Standards and Framework Act of 1999, and under the guidance of the Chairman Barrie Martin, secured the School’s Foundation Status with an Instrument of Government that increased representation of the Friends of Queen Elizabeth’s, the parents, Foundation Trustees and Old Elizabethans. Their unity of purpose enabled considerable development of the School: new buildings included the Martin Swimming Pool and Shearly Hall; and many refinements to teaching and learning facilitated the School’s emergence as a centre of national excellence in the education of young men. And in 2010, the Governors with the steadfast leadership of the Chairman, Barrie Martin, further consolidated the School’s autonomy by converting to Academy status on the express invitation of the Secretary of State in terms of the Academies Act of 2010.

AND be it known that in the year 2011, Neil Enright, Master of Arts of Oxford University, succeeded as the School’s 40th Headmaster. And that improvements to the School environment continued apace thanks to the vision of the Governors and trustees of the Friends of Queen Elizabeth’s, and the generosity of parents and old boys: in 2012 there was added a new Food Technology teaching area; in 2013 a new Dining Hall and Café 1573, the name of which pays homage to the year of our founding and displays images that reflect the history of our School; and in 2014 the Queen’s Library, named in honour of our Founder, opened to provide the boys with a study facility befitting of their education.

AND be it known that our Chairman of Governors, Barrie Martin, was honoured in 2014 by being named a Member of the British Empire by Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II in recognition of his many years of voluntary service and his steadfast leadership of the Governing Body during a period when the School’s record of academic achievement reached unprecedented heights. And that our Head of Mathematics, Mrs. Fauziah Scarisbrick, was in 2014 similarly honoured by being named a Member of the British Empire for her services to education, this award recognising that for thirty-one years Mrs. Scarisbrick had inspired and guided the pupils in her care, providing faithful service to the School and contributing to the School’s continued success.

AND so the efforts and generosity of many: the Governors, Trustees, parents, teachers, boys and old boys, all have made the School renowned and all have made the School to flourish - may it always flourish. Philafrenzy (talk) 10:02, 20 September 2016 (UTC)

Royal options Frederick321 (talk) 17:33, 10 March 2024 (UTC)

@ Frederick321 (talk) 17:34, 10 March 2024 (UTC)