Talk:RG Snyman

Requested move 21 July 2020

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: moved. Support arguments have demonstrated that the proposal meets the exception set out at MOS:INITIALS and opposers have failed to demonstrate any common usage of the full stops in his name. Number 57 14:34, 1 August 2020 (UTC)

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R. G. Snyman → RG Snyman – Although MOS:INITIALS states the normal correct way of initialising a name is capitalised followed by a full stop, it states that if the person has a different preferred style it can be used or a majority of sources use a certain variant. In this case the players social media uses RG Snyman and a large number of sources also use RG Snyman including primary sources from the clubs he has played for and secondary sources also. The page was previously listed under RG Snyman but moved without consensus. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 12:28, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

Some sources to further illustrate my point. Personal sources: Instagram, Primary sources: Munster profile, Rugby World Cup profile, Ultimate Rugby, ESPN, Secondary sources: Irish Examiner, Sports Joe, Independent.ie, BBC, Irish Rugby, SA Rugby Magazine, Irish Times. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 14:03, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support - very clear from the sources that "RG" is what his name is, and that overly prescriptive MOS:INITIALS usage results in presenting false information. -- Netoholic @ 12:42, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
• Support Per our manual of style, which is clear that when a subject's preferred style for their name is used in a strong majority of reliable sources that should be the page name.--Yaksar (let's chat) 12:51, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
• Comment Similar discussions are open at C. J. Stander and J. P. Pietersen. If I could get your views on them @Netoholic: and @Yaksar: i'd be very grateful. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 14:21, 21 July 2020 (UTC)

• Thanks for flagging. I realize that these are almost identical cases so pointing them out makes sense, and that all the !votes so far do agree with you so you weren't being selective, but I'd be cautious here to avoid the semblance of WP:CANVASSING.--Yaksar (let's chat) 14:37, 21 July 2020 (UTC)
• I'll also note that there is another nearly identical discussion ongoing at Talk:P._G._Sittenfeld.--Yaksar (let's chat) 20:08, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom.--Ortizesp (talk) 18:26, 22 July 2020 (UTC)
• Oppose Rudolph Gerhardus is his name. MOS:INITIALS is there to stop exactly this kind of stylism. In ictu oculi (talk) 22:09, 22 July 2020 (UTC)

MOS:INITIALS clearly states that if a person has a consistent preferred style for their name, and/or an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant, it should be written that way. This is clearly the case here. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:34, 23 July 2020 (UTC)

Apologies, but given that the page you cite is pretty clear that in cases where the majority of sources use the subject's preferred spelling, why would you cite a policy that you then suggest we should ignore?--Yaksar (let's chat) 13:50, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per iio. One would need a stronger rationale, not based on just on personal/inside sources. Dicklyon (talk) 01:15, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Plenty of primary and secondary sources use RG over R. G. so it's clearly not just personal/inside sources. Mentioning his social media account name preference was in reference to the person himself having a preferred style as mentioned in MOS:INITIALS. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 09:28, 27 July 2020 (UTC)
• Sorry, why are we calling reliable independent sources "personal/inside?" Where are the many reliable sources using the current name that would require us to ignore our titling policy?--Yaksar (let's chat) 13:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

The only sources referred to in the rationale were personal and inside ("social media uses RG Snyman and a large number of sources also use RG Snyman including primary sources from the clubs he has played for and secondary sources also"). That's a long way from showing "an overwhelming majority of reliable sources" do it. Lacking a collection of evidence from a neutral survey of sources, the case is weak. Dicklyon (talk) 15:30, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Have added links to some secondary sources above, the social media comment was in reference to the person's own social media accounts (have linked his Instagram), not people using that name on social media. As I have also said, ZERO sources I have been able to find use R. G. Snyman, whereas they instead use RG Snyman. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 16:21, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Got it. That's totally fair, but given that from Googling and searching around it seems super difficult to find reliable sources that do not use the proposed name (and links have now been provided), doesn't really apply anymore. Just searching his name in Google news, we can see at least 200 or so sources that pretty much almost all use the proposed title.--Yaksar (let's chat) 16:48, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Oppose per above. Wikipedia house style. -- Necrothesp (talk) 10:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Again, the house style allows for this change as MOS:INITIALS states:

An initial is capitalized and is followed by a full point (period) and a space (e.g. J. R. R. Tolkien), unless:

• the person demonstrably has a different, consistently preferred style for his or her own name; and
• an overwhelming majority of reliable sources use that variant style for that person.

In such a case, treat it as a self-published name change. Examples include k.d. lang, CC Sabathia, and CCH Pounder.

Snyman clearly has a consistently preferred style for his name, and an overwhelming majority of reliable sources us the style JP for his name. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 12:21, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Rugbyfan22 please stop repeating your view with every oppose, as you can see this is not going to pass. Because minor sports habits are not k.d. lang league. In ictu oculi (talk) 12:53, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

I apologise for repeating my view, but nobody who opposes has given me a significant reason why they oppose the move other than just stating that it's 'house style' or what seemed to be a misinterpretation of personal/inside sources. I've found ZERO sources that use R. G. Snyman compared to RG Snyman, therefore at least qualifying it for the third note of MOS:INITIALS. A better comparison would be to CC Sabathia and CCH Pounder as above. Rugbyfan22 (talk) 13:40, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

Honestly it's a fair question -- our house style states pretty clearly why this page should be moved, so citing the style would require a reason why we should disregard it. Please try to stick with arguments that aren't just your personal biases. Our policies do not say anywhere that "these rules don't apply if users don't think the subject's industry is important enough."--Yaksar (let's chat) 13:45, 27 July 2020 (UTC)

• Support per nom. The subject and sources both use the proposed stylization. Calidum 01:05, 29 July 2020 (UTC)

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The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.