Talk:Radagast

Radagast vs Radabash

The similarity of Radagast the Simple, whose nature made him like an animal, and the Narnian/Calmoren Rabadash the Ridiculous, whom Aslan cursed to be a donkey because he acted like one, seems too much to be a coincidence.

Both Rabadash and Radagast are scorned and equated with animals by their bellicose peers.

Analogously, Thorin Oakenshield's greed made him act like a dragon, and the greed of Eustace Clarence Scrubb turned him into an actual dragon.

In Middle Earth the changes were allegories, but in Narnia they were real, because Narnia is more or less an allegory.

At any rate the character looks likely to be a result of the Inklings pondering the fate of humans who act like animals.

What happens in Brisvegas... --Jack Upland (talk) 23:01, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Without a reliable source for the comparison, it'd be original research. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:24, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Radagast in Rhudaur

Dear All, I originally entered in a post along the following lines

In terms of canonical Middle Earth geography, Radagast's presence in Rhudaur at this point in the narrative is surprising, as he would need to cross the Misty Mountains, whose relative impassibility is a consistent complicating plot device in both The Hobbit and The Lord of the Rings. The only option viable for him would be crossing the High Pass, which is somewhat distant from Rhosgobel.

A couple of people keep treating this as irrelevant or vandalism, whereas I think it a valid point in the plot development of the Hobbit /difference between the books and film. I can see this needlessly developing into a edit war, so I would respectfully seek other's opinions on the matter. Adamm (talk • contribs) 03:40, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

differences between book and film plot are generally irrelevant and not included unless they are given significant coverage in reliable sources. Your addition is original research, and while it may be true there is no indications it is significant enough to warrant entry. GimliDotNet (talk) 07:36, 25 January 2015 (UTC)

• The problem is this assumes that the film posits the same general geography as the books. This assertion needs to be sourced before we can reasonably talk of what adagast being anywhere implies. If you can find secondary reliable source analysis of Radagast in the film's that discusses this point, we can include it, otherwise I see no reason to.John Pack Lambert (talk) 22:24, 20 January 2020 (UTC)

This is whey the article should be DELETED. The Riddle of Radagast (TM) is a topic of endless conversation among Tolks nuts (cf Newton's Balls). But there has been no scholarly research on the topic. Apart from the novel I'm about to pulp.--Jack Upland (talk) 23:45, 28 September 2021 (UTC)

Radagast has been discussed by multiple Tolkien scholars, cited in the article. Aside from that, the character has attracted wide attention for his appearances in Jackson's films, and would be notable on that account alone. Chiswick Chap (talk) 10:27, 29 September 2021 (UTC)

Merge

The following discussion is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section. A summary of the conclusions reached follows.

The merger discussion was here. I am closing this discussion because it is sowing confusion.--Jack Upland (talk) 22:11, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

---

• Oppose Radagast, along with Gandalf and Saruman, is one of the Istari who is both named and appears in the well-known narratives. Andy Dingley (talk) 20:32, 20 November 2019 (UTC)
• Oppose. This just went through AfD, where – among other things – merging was on the table. /Julle (talk) 23:59, 23 November 2019 (UTC)

Andy Dingley, the merge discussion was here. It was properly signposted. I think the closure was irregular though.--Jack Upland (talk) 17:59, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

That was a discussion which went nowhere, superseded by an AfD, superseded by the discussion here. Andy Dingley (talk) 18:05, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

No, Andy. The AfD ended on 19 November 2019. The merge discussion then continued until February this year. You just commented on the wrong talk page.--Jack Upland (talk) 18:37, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

That proposal failed with no consensus. It was then superseded by an AfD and a second discussion on this page. But then it was re-opened and a fourth attempt to merge it was actioned, despite no mention of this, months later, having been raised on this page. All in a context where a handful of the same editors over and over are describing this as a "Tolkiencruft hunt". Andy Dingley (talk) 19:50, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Andy, you have your facts wrong.--Jack Upland (talk) 19:54, 18 March 2020 (UTC)

Jack Upland I believe you are correct: the merge link took one to Talk:Middle-earth peoples and it seemed clear enough. However, given the challenge and the related discussions which could have confused people, it may be best to start over. I suggest we look carefully for evidence of notability and list it here, and then consider if Radagast is in fact separately notable. My feeling is not but if we have actual evidence in front of us then perhaps we can collectively make a rational decision. Anyway that's the theory, let's see what can be found. Chiswick Chap (talk) 16:17, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

I think we have discussed it enough. In fact, I would completely opposed to restarting a merge proposal. After all, the discussion started in August last year. But I think that an uninvolved editor is supposed to determine consensus.--Jack Upland (talk) 20:53, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

OK, so how do we get such a person to take a look at it? --Chiswick Chap (talk) 03:45, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

See WP:MERGECLOSE. There are two options given. Whichever we choose, we have to be clear that there are two discussions, one here and one at Middle-earth peoples.--Jack Upland (talk) 06:33, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

It says "You can post it at WP:Proposed mergers to get some help. If necessary, one may request that an administrator who is not involved to close the discussion, at the Requests for Closure noticeboard." Will you be posting that? Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:05, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

You can if you want.--Jack Upland (talk) 16:23, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

OK, I've requested it here. As the situation is quite complex you might wish to check I've mentioned all that's necessary. Feel free to tweak it. Chiswick Chap (talk) 20:22, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

Chiswick Chap, I think that's fine.--Jack Upland (talk) 21:05, 22 March 2020 (UTC)

why does this article still exist? The result of the merge discussion was merge. There are no secondary sources supporting a stand alone article Lava Lamps (talk) 11:48, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

See just above, which is exactly about that question. I merged it, per consensus, and another editor reverted this. I've therefore asked for the merge to be closed (one way or the other) by an independent administrator, and we're now waiting for this to happen. Chiswick Chap (talk) 12:10, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Well this is confusing. The request I posted has been marked "done" by an administrator, Drmies, at 16:52 on 21 May 2020. We can take it, therefore, that the merger is now agreed, even though the thread above shows no change, so I'll do the redirect now. If Drmies would like to confirm this (and maybe mark the discussion above as closed) that would be very helpful. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:12, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

No, Chiswick Chap! The merger discussion was here: [1]. I initiated at the target page as recommended by the guidelines. Subsequently, two editors started this posting. We discussed this back in March. See above.--Jack Upland (talk) 09:33, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

Ah, thanks. Well, see there for what to do. Chiswick Chap (talk) 14:31, 3 June 2020 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

Sources

Per the above:

• Birns, Nicholas (2007) "The Enigma of Radagast: Revision, Melodrama, and Depth," Mythlore: A Journal of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Charles Williams, and Mythopoeic Literature: Vol. 26 : No. 1 , Article 8. (pages 113-126) Available at: https://dc.swosu.edu/mythlore/vol26/iss1/8

- Radagast plays a minor role in TH; a different minor role in LOTR; Slavic origin of name; then revised out of the text.

- usable for notability, just about.

• Berman, Ruth (1985) "Radagast in Middle-earth," Mythlore: A Journal of J.R.R. Tolkien, C.S. Lewis, Charles

Williams, and Mythopoeic Literature: Vol. 11 : No. 3 , Article 18. Available at: https://dc.swosu.edu/mythlore/vol11/iss3/18

- Poem about him. No use for notability.

• The Brown Wizard's Unexpected Politics: Speciesist Fiction and the Ethics of The Hobbit JL Schatz, Chapter 1 in Screening the Nonhuman: Representations of Animal Others in the Media, 2016

https://books.google.co.uk/books?hl=en&lr=&id=IZD2CwAAQBAJ&oi=fnd&pg=PA3&dq=Radagast+the+Brown&ots=1xyeHMMOJM&sig=Tt6t0No6sthkMxSEvXqFniZlJMA

- says that in Peter Jackson's Hobbit films, Radagast tries to save a dying hedgehog in Mirkwood; links this to accusation of animal deaths, off-set, and ethics. Radagast also distracts Orcs to allow Thorin's party to escape. §

- not sure we can make much of all that.

• Reunion with Nature; Tolkien’s the Lord of the Rings

by Jamie Mosel, January 27, 2011, Religion 238 http://www.jemosel.com/uploads/5/6/4/4/5644599/reunionwithnature_lotr.pdf

- Radagast, like Bombadil, is in "pure communion" but like him is unable to address the troubles of Middle-earth all around him.

- small contribution.

• Shippey, Road to Middle-Earth

- mentions "Radagaisus" in Gibbon's Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire.

• Drout, Encyclopedia

- mentions Radagast briefly in "Wizards" article.

They all agree he's a minor character. He's not obviously notable from a scholarly perspective. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:19, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

A google search for popular but more-or-less usable sources returned just 75 hits including fluff.

• The Origins of Tolkien's Middle-earth for Dummies

- says that R "appears so briefly in LOTR that he is more of a plot device than an actual character."

• Radagast the Brown music track by Howard Shore for The Hobbit: An Unexpected Journey.

Apart from that there's fancruft and twitter and discontinued statuettes. Doesn't seem notable to me. Chiswick Chap (talk) 17:28, 21 March 2020 (UTC)

On the other hand, there's quite substantial coverage of the adaptation into a popular film character, and whether it's true to the text. If this is not to be deleted we might as well have a decently-written article. Chiswick Chap (talk) 13:53, 4 June 2020 (UTC)

Sources (part 2)

Is The Annotated Hobbit considered a primary or secondary source? Lava Lamps (talk) 20:23, 29 March 2020 (UTC)

Primary. Chiswick Chap (talk) 08:40, 30 March 2020 (UTC)

Shaman illustration?

I'm not sure the picture of an Asian woman is appropriate here.--Jack Upland (talk) 08:59, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Neither race nor gender should make the slightest difference. It's the role that is being compared, and the historic photograph well illustrates that, along with the style of clothing and indeed the accommodation. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:08, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Yes, I recognise you have a totally different view of the use of illustrations. An Australian wagon of cotton to illustrate a wagon of tobbaco in the Shire. An Asian woman to illustrate Radagast. What next? An Eskimo woman to illustrate Frodo? An Australian sheila to illustrate Gandalf?--Jack Upland (talk) 09:25, 5 June 2020 (UTC)

Not illustrating him, illustrating shamanism. And you should not be speaking about other editors, me or anybody else, at any time. Chiswick Chap (talk) 09:47, 5 June 2020 (UTC)