Talk:Raymond Damadian

Requested move 20 October 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: page moved. Andrewa (talk) 08:36, 27 October 2017 (UTC)

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Raymond Vahan Damadian → Raymond Damadian – WP:COMMONNAME] Երևանցի ^talk 06:43, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

• Raymond Damadian - 2 540 results
• Raymond Vahan Damadian - 42 results

• Support: Per nominator. There are no other people with Wikipedia articles with the same name (even without the middle name), so there are no disambiguation issues. His middle name is rarely, if ever, used when referring to him. --1990'sguy (talk) 13:01, 20 October 2017 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Armenian

There seems to have been some controversy over whether Damadian can be called an Armenian American, even though he seems to be described that way very widely in reliable sources - e.g. "an American of Armenian descent",[1] "The closest that any Armenians has come to receiving the Nobel Prize was Dr. Raymond Damadian",[2], etc. What's the problem? BobFromBrockley (talk) 18:05, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

Both of those sources cater to Armenian people who apparently live overseas (based on the fact that they use the English language) -- of course they're interested in people of that same demographic. It's clear that Damadian is of Armenian descent, and there's nothing wrong with including this in the article body. However, Damadian was born in the U.S., lived in the U.S., did all his work in the U.S., I see nothing indicating that he's an Armenian citizen, -- also, his Armenian ethnicity is irrelevant to everything he is known for. It fails MOS:LEAD. Show me mainstream sources that mention that Damadian is Armenian, and I'll be OK with including it in the intro. --1990'sguy (talk) 21:10, 9 November 2017 (UTC)

"Armenian American" does not mean dual national, anymore than "Italian American", "African American or any other similar hyphenated ethnic identity. BobFromBrockley (talk) 16:56, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Cf Richard Bakalyan, Ken Davitian, Adam Benjamin Jr., Steven Derounian, Charles Garabedian, Khachadour Paul Garabedian, etc etc etc - also not dual citizens as far as I can tell.BobFromBrockley (talk) 17:02, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

Some of the articles you show are of people who were born overseas -- I support using that wording in that case. The other articles were people like Damadian -- where their Armenian ancestry is irrelevant to everything they're known for. I support making it simply "American" in those latter cases. Also, Italian Americans and African Americans are Americans first and foremost, and the first sentence of those articles should reflect that, unless the ethnic background of any person in question is relevant to who they are. --1990'sguy (talk) 20:40, 10 November 2017 (UTC)

It doesn't matter if they are "Americans first and foremost" or not. "Italian American" and "Armenian American" are how they identify themselves and/or how they are identified. It also doesn't matter whether their ethnic identity is relevant to the person's notability (clearly, Damadian's birthday isn't part of the reason Damadian is famous either, yet WP includes it in the first sentence or so of a biography). What matters is whether there are reliable sources which describe him as such. There is an article Armenian Americans which defines Armenian Americans as " citizens or residents of the United States who have total or partial Armenian ancestry". As the Damadian article has a reliably sourced statement that he is of Armenian descent, then it should be uncontroversial to describe him as Armenian American. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:02, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

I haven't assessed all of these sources to see if they are all fully RS for a BLP, but here are some sources that name Damadian as "Armenian American". [3], [4], [5], [6], [7], [8], [9], [10], [11], [12], [13]. In short, he is widely and uncontroversially regarded as Armenian American. BobFromBrockley (talk) 13:20, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Are there any guidelines about including ethnicity in the intro (when it is irrelevant to the person) that favor your position? Also, there's a big difference between one's ethnic identity and one's birthdate. I would argue that one's birthdate is essential information about someone, while one's ethnic identity (assuming they don't make it a big part of themselves) is not. Besides, does Damadian himself view "Armenian American" as his ethnic identity? If he just considers himself an American and doesn't show any connection to Armenia, we should just call him an American. Otherwise, we'll probably end up using hyphenated terms on most articles. --1990'sguy (talk) 13:41, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

Good question. I'm not sure what the guidelines are. It seems very common in biographies of Americans (and what would be the problem if lots of articles have hyphenated identities in them?). It's clear Damadian shows connection to Armenia - e.g. he attended a world congress of Armenian scientists in the mid-2000s, or more recently an Armenian Evangelical Church annual banquet[14]. And it's also clear he is an iconic figure in the Armenian diaspora ("His exclusion scandalized the scientific community, in general, and the Armenian community, in particular."[15]) BobFromBrockley (talk) 15:33, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

These are fair points, but as I already mentioned above, I have a problem with Armenian sources (non-independent) being used to put this in the intro. Hopefully, some of the sources you linked above are, along with being reliable. --1990'sguy (talk) 19:55, 13 November 2017 (UTC)

His ethnicity should not be mentioned in the intro because 1) it has little to no importance to his notability 2) he was born in the US and his Armenianness is not significant in any way that should be mentioned in the intro in the same way the Armenian ancestry of Jack Kevorkian and Robert Kardashian is not mentioned in the into. --Երևանցի ^talk 15:31, 23 November 2017 (UTC)

The sources are clear -- Damadian is an American of Armenian (or Armenian-French) descent, and he has no other connection to Armenia (e.g. nationality). Thus, he's not "Armenian-American" in the same way that Ron DeSantis isn't "Italian-American" or Barack Obama isn't "Kenyan-American" (try adding those labels on those two individuals' articles). It is inappropriate, inaccurate, and WP:POV to add the "Armenian-American" to the intro. --1990'sguy (talk) 01:37, 28 February 2021 (UTC)

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