Talk:Red Guards

Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment

This article is or was the subject of a Wiki Education Foundation-supported course assignment. Further details are available on the course page. Student editor(s): Ahaines01, Sotchoud.

Above undated message substituted from Template:Dashboard.wikiedu.org assignment by PrimeBOT (talk) 07:54, 17 January 2022 (UTC)

Chinese pronunciation

What was the Chinese pronunsiation of the term? Kind of "hoon wei bin"? Please add to the article. Mikkalai 20:45, 14 Nov 2004 (UTC)

How to pronounce

Please provide a romanization of the term. mikka (t) 20:55, 11 July 2005 (UTC)

不愛爸爸，不愛媽媽，只愛國家

I'm a native Chinese speaker, and this phrase translates literally into "Don't love father, don't love mother, only love the country." So either the Chinese words are incorrect, or the translation is. Can someone double-check and edit? LullabyLoves 22:25, 27 April 2006 (UTC)

There is another saying as "爹親娘親不及毛主席親", which means "father and mother are not so close as Mao". But it's not a very accurate translation, I think. Can any native speaker translate it? Ittop123 14:43, 12 May 2006 (UTC)

Yes, but I think this phrase has been edited out. The previous translation was something not even similar to a literal or figurative translation. LullabyLoves 00:33, 15 May 2006 (UTC)

Doing the cultural revolution as part of my degree, it may help that Jung Chang quotes Mao's saying as 'Father is Close, Mother is Close, but neither is as close as Chairman Mao'. This refers to efforts to create the 'Cult of Mao' preceeding the Cultural Revolution. [Jung Chang, Wild Swans (London 1993), p 313-335]. I've no more idea as to the Chinese I'm afraid.

is this discussion close? as i don't see it in the articale anymore? btw, is there something we can use to mark off outdated subject from the discussion? Akinkhoo (talk) 06:08, 18 February 2008 (UTC)

NPOV

The following, among other things in this section, is quite absurd:

Authoritarian pro-capitalist Chinese critics of Mao say that Mao was aware of the increasing ideological differentiation and the petty struggles occurring in the air of the "si da," the four big freedoms, so he should have shut down the Red Guards and the entire Cultural Revolution earlier. Oddly, this suited Western liberals who objected to keeping China off the capitalist road.

If there are specific "authoritarian pro-capitalist Chinese critics of Mao," "Western liberals," etc., that you have in mind, how about we have their names, rather than a polemical and POV description that reads like it was copied out of MIM Notes or Rénmín Rìbào? Radgeek 17:57, 27 May 2006 (UTC)

This article

This is a very poor article which needs to be completely rewritten. (Why is it every time I visit an article to do with any aspect of communist history I find the some grossly tendentious rubbish?) Adam 11:46, 11 June 2006 (UTC)

I found this article kind to the atrocities that occurred during this Cultural Revolution.

I strongly agree with Adam about this article. I'm mystified, for even the contemporary Chinese Communist Party says without equivocation that the Cultural Revolution and the Red Guards were a disaster for China. Whose sensibilities here are being protected? The Gang of Four? Or is it older Americans who confused the Red Guards with back to the land Hippies of the Sixties? Let's use the August 2006 definitive Harvard U Press book on this, three decades in the writing, Mao's Last Revolution.

He brings a good point... most articles about communisms are either clearly pro/ pr against it. This is bad because the articles are not neutral. This one is no different it doe snot really point out the negative aspect of the Red GuardsAlexgren 21:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

This is yet another article about China that is largely a translation from writings in Chinese. Sometimes the sentence structure gives it away, other times it is the references to things that have not been said. Example from Origins: According to Zhang, the group of students . . . Who is Zhang? DOR (HK) (talk) 02:32, 25 April 2008 (UTC)

"barbarism of red guard"?

I doubt I need to elaborate on how that is an extremely POV-laden comment. Needs to be changed, definitely. -- 我♥中國 07:07, 10 December 2006 (UTC)

I changed it to "brutality," which has less of a "value-judgement" feel, I think. The Red Guards did treat people very badly, and if the Hong Kong television programs emphasise that aspect, it's only fair to mention it. Speaker for the Dead 17:27, 17 December 2006 (UTC) Alexgren 21:16, 10 April 2007 (UTC)

Just an unrelated note about the "barbarism" of the Red Guard, my moms grandmother or great grandmother (who lived up till 100 years old, died in year 2000), from what I heard from my mother, she was married into a rich family in Guangzhou area since she was 14 years old with at least 5 housemaids and owned several farms. Anyways during the cultural revolution my mother grandfather didn't want to escape to Hong Kong (due to his sentiment to a few favourite ox of his) so the rest of the family left to Hong Kong but he was caught by the Red Guard. During the torture, they forced him to kneel down on broken glasses that crippled him forever while giving him beating and force him to confess his "capitalistic" indulgence. Anyways they somehow managed to bribe the officials to bring him to Hong Kong. After the cultural revolution he became "loyal" to the Communist government in Peking while my Great grandmother hated anything related to Red Guards or Communist government in Peking (I remember she nearly wanted to bite my grandfather head off when he praised Peking government once). A true story that I heard from them. Anyway, just wanted to tell a personal story about the Red Guards, I am sure there are millions of other tragedy survivor story that happened in a time when humanity shows their ugly side.

hanchi 16:21, 21 Februari 2011

Protection for this article

Looking back over the history of this article, it has continously suffered from unexplained, wholesale deletions of material by unregistered users. I'm going to recommend it for partial page protection.Sylvain1972 18:03, 9 March 2007 (UTC)

Fair use rationale for Image:Little red book.jpg

Image:Little red book.jpg is being used on this article. I notice the image page specifies that the image is being used under fair use but there is no explanation or rationale as to why its use in this Wikipedia article constitutes fair use. In addition to the boilerplate fair use template, you must also write out on the image description page a specific explanation or rationale for why using this image in each article is consistent with fair use.

Please go to the image description page and edit it to include a fair use rationale. Using one of the templates at Wikipedia:Fair use rationale guideline is an easy way to ensure that your image is in compliance with Wikipedia policy, but remember that you must complete the template. Do not simply insert a blank template on an image page.

If there is other fair use media, consider checking that you have specified the fair use rationale on the other images used on this page. Note that any fair use images lacking such an explanation can be deleted one week after being tagged, as described on criteria for speedy deletion. If you have any questions please ask them at the Media copyright questions page. Thank you.

BetacommandBot (talk) 23:12, 13 February 2008 (UTC)

New information added

I have added significant information to this article. This is a very sensitive topic to write on, so if you have any comments on my additions please discuss them here. MarquisCostello (talk) 17:42, 21 February 2009 (UTC)

Nothing is sensitive anymore since the Cultural revolution happened 30-40 years ago, and the official verdict by the communists themselves was 十年浩劫 translate:Ten years of great disaster. And we all know that the red guards were just a bunch a mobs used by Mao to attack his political rivals. Arilang ^talk 00:48, 17 May 2009 (UTC)

While I agree that the Red Guard movement is no longer "sensitive", I find the claim that "we all know" (!) that "the Red Guards were just a bunch a mobs [sic]" to be rather off the mark, and indicative of ignorance rather than genuine historical knowledge. The Red Guards were, like many other events and participants in the history of the PRC, surely 70%/30% good/bad.Villa Giulia (talk) 16:28, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

The above comment by VG needs rebuttal, so I guess I volunteer. Have you ever spoken with Chinese people who lived through the terror of the (especially early) Red Guards era? Do you have the slightest conception of what mass-murder entails? Of the tragic loss of family members and other loved ones? Does the damage caused to China's progress by the Cultural Revolution mean anything? "70% good"??? You must be joking. 98.67.5.184 (talk) 09:45, 9 July 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFan

Nie Yuanzi

Nie Yuanzi was not one of the "group of students" but a middle-aged party secretary in the departmet of philosophy at Peking University. Her name does not belong in the sentence where it occurs, and hence I deleted it.Villa Giulia (talk) 20:27, 28 March 2010 (UTC)

Mobilized by Mao Zedong

The red guards weren't moblized by him at all. They were just simpily very strong folowers of his idology and thought that they were doing their duty. Think of it as Rastafarians and Haile Selassie, the latter did not want to be worshipped just like Mao Zedong did not order the red guards to destroy religious objects and political dissidents. —Preceding unsigned comment added by 88.106.77.1 (talk) 12:16, 5 June 2010 (UTC)

Sadly (for China), the historical evidence says otherwise. 98.67.5.184 (talk) 09:49, 9 July 2010 (UTC)HammerFilmFan

Real images of Red Guards

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DIrUHVFkm9A Culture Revolution - Public execution & Impact, things that Red Guards did. Arilang ^talk 07:09, 17 February 2011 (UTC)

"Chinese roulette"

Removed the sentences about firing squads and "chinese roulette" because 1. the first sentence about firing squads is not supported by the citation 2. the citation for "chinese roulette" refers to a novelist who "apparently" experienced it - surely there can be more reliable information about this? 3. the source is not about China let alone the Red Guards and is not widely available. Not only that but it doesn't cite it's claims. 195.195.176.1 (talk) 15:58, 29 September 2012 (UTC)

Death Toll?

Where is the overall death toll of the Red Guard movement, and why is it not here? I recall it being something like 70 million deaths. Please amend. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 24.4.117.208 (talk) 05:35, 30 December 2015 (UTC)

Requested move 20 July 2017

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: Moved. Alex Shih^Talk 02:08, 28 July 2017 (UTC)

---

• Red Guards (China) → Red Guards
• Red Guard → Red Guard (disambiguation)

– per WP:PRIMARYTOPIC.

1. Long-term significance: The Maoist Red Guards were the vanguard of the Cultural Revolution. They persecuted millions of people, overthrew almost all regional governments, destroyed countless cultural sites, and fought a virtual civil war among themselves, killing tens of thousands of people. Among all the entries listed in the disambiguation page, The Chinese Red Guard is the only one significant enough to be regularly mentioned in World History books. See Google books.

2. Pageviews: Red Guards (China) receives 10,000s of page views a month, more than all other Red Guard articles combined. See pageviews analysis for the last 18 months.

3. Google results: google search results for Red Guards are almost exclusively about the Chinese Red Guards for the first several pages.

Zanhe (talk) 18:46, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• Oppose maybe a primary redirect might have some help value to readers but removing (China) doesn't. In ictu oculi (talk) 21:52, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• So you agree that Red Guards (China) is the primary topic, but suggest that a WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT should be used instead of the proposed move? That makes no sense to me. WP:PRIMARYREDIRECT is normally used for articles with multiple common names, not for cases about unnecessary disambiguation such as this one. -Zanhe (talk) 23:28, 20 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support. The Bolshevik Red Guard may have had a greater impact on world history, but the page views give it to the Chinese. Whiff of greatness (talk) 12:57, 21 July 2017 (UTC)
• Oppose. The Russian units are at least as famous. Srnec (talk) 23:57, 23 July 2017 (UTC)

• Sorry, but your assertion is contradicted by evidence. Red Guards (China) gets four times as many pageviews as Red Guards (Russia), and has far more editors and watchers, see analysis. Similarly, a Google books search for "Red Guards" China returns four times as many results as "Red Guards" Russia. -Zanhe (talk) 03:39, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

• Britannica has a full article on the Chinese group while the Russian group gets single mention in Lenin's article. Perhaps it's baby boomer bias. The 1960s have eclipsed all earlier history. Whiff of greatness (talk) 08:58, 24 July 2017 (UTC)

• I don't think the Russian Red Guard's legacy has been eclipsed, it's just been subsumed into a much bigger topic, the Red Army. Britannica editors probably consider it part of the Red Army and not worth its own article. -Zanhe (talk) 04:13, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

• That's not the group's claim to fame. The Red Guard staged the coup that overthrew Kerensky. This was a central piece of Soviet mythology referred to as "Red October" or "Great October." It was glorified by John Reed as Ten Days That Shook the World (1919), a title no one thought was an overreach when the book came out. Whiff of greatness (talk) 11:58, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

• I think that Zanhe is correct. The history and legacy of the Red Guards is subsumed into that of the Red Army. I don't read much post-1945 history, so it was my bias that was showing. I am a little stunned, though, by both the depth and breadth of coverage in English of the Chinese Red Guards. It far outstrips the knowledge of these events among the English-speaking public, I think, compared to the that on the Russian Revolution. Srnec (talk) 12:53, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

• Support The OED has definitions and reasonably recent citations for the Chinese, Finnish, and Russian groups, but the pageview evidence is pretty compelling for the primary meaning in the 2010s. Matt's talk 10:27, 25 July 2017 (UTC)

---

The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

Move discussion in progress

There is a move discussion in progress on Talk:Red Guard (disambiguation) which affects this page. Please participate on that page and not in this talk page section. Thank you. —RMCD bot 22:44, 27 August 2017 (UTC)

Ambiguous grammar here

"One of these very people, Rae Yang, described how these actions inspired students. Through authority figures, such as teachers, using their positions as a form of absolute command rather than as educators, gave students a reason to believe Red Guard messages." Should this all be one sentence, or can we remove "Through" and just open the second sentence with "Authority figures"? I don't have the source attached in the article so I can't say what was intended here. Zeke, the Mad Horrorist ^{(Speak quickly)} _{(Follow my trail)} 15:56, 11 November 2022 (UTC)

student-led

Describing the social movement and subsequent organization as student-lead doesn't seem adequate and precise. it seems more like an organization that was emerging out of student rebellion in general that was very early on co-opted and mobilized by the high leader ship led by Mao. His contradictory responses to the youth by sometimes supporting, exploiting, supporting, undermining, and attacking it confounds in attempt to refer to it as somewhat static and concrete and lead by students.

Maybe framing the origins as they began when useful rebellious energy started to organize on college campuses. maybe framing the origins as they began when useful rebellious energy started to organize on college campuses. but the fact that the Chinese Communist Party closed colleges, universities, and middle schools to co-opt the useful rebellious energy for me undermines the ordinary use of describing something a student-led whether by ad hoc or more formal organization of members. Nikelous (talk) 22:04, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

I don't think it gives that impression, in light of the second half of the sentence, which I have bolded here: "student-led paramilitary social movement mobilized by Chairman Mao Zedong in 1966 until their abolishment in 1968, during the first phase of the Cultural Revolution, which he had instituted

Of course the PLA suppression and rustication is also addressed in the article body. So I don't think the reader could have the confusion that you have a concern for. JArthur1984 (talk) 22:29, 14 September 2023 (UTC)

Wrong picture of the Red Guards

The first picture should be of Red Guards, not of Little Red Guards, as shown by the characters "红小兵" on their armbands. Ctxz2323 (talk) 09:50, 4 April 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Picture changed. --SCreditC (talk) 18:38, 4 April 2024 (UTC)