Talk:Red Skelton/Archive 1

Archive 1

Archive 2

Circumstances of his death

According to an email I received from Don Miller (webmaster of http://www.redskelton.com and authorized by Red's widow), Red died in the hospital in Palm Springs from an undisclosed illness. His home was in Anza, not Rancho Mirage. I changed the article to reflect that. Joe 15:04, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

When I exchanged emails with Mr. Miller to get permission to use Red's picture, he looked at the Wikipedia article and specifically requested that we change it to accurately reflect the circumstances of his death. I think we need to honor that. Joe 18:24, 26 October 2005 (UTC)

His official web site

I added an external link to Red's official web site. The Wikipedia style guide for external links discourages links to sites that have things for sale unless it's the subject's official site. So I think this is okay. But I'll accept comments. Joe 15:17, 7 October 2005 (UTC)

Skelton's room in the Amargosa Hotel

There was a long paragraph praising the virtues of a certain hotel, with the only link to Red being that one of the rooms was named after him. An obvious attempt at using Wiki to advertise. I deleted it.

I was a teenager as Red's TV career was ending. I noticed a real drop off in the quality of his performances, especially a lack of discipline in terms of staying in character. I had heard that he had become an uncontrolled alcoholic, and that was the cause. Comments?

Tom H 11/1/06

"using Wiki to advertise"...

Tom: No, not an ad. I put the information there, but I have never been to the Amargosa Hotel. I do not know Marta Becket or anyone connected with the Amargosa Hotel in Death Valley Junction. Even the Amargosa makes only a passing reference to the Red Skelton room 22 in its website: http://www.amargosa-opera-house.com/hotel.html

I never knew anything about Red Skelton's secret retreat at room 22 until I saw the unforgettable documentary Amargosa (2000), a film so haunting I've seen it several times. It tells the true story of Marta Becket who left her life as a New York dancer in 1967 to open her Death Valley theater in the abandoned buildings once used by the 20 Mule Team Borax workers familiar from Death Valley Days.

In the ghost town, Becket had no audience -- so she spent years painting the audience on the walls of the theater until finally real people began coming to see her shows. It makes sense that Ray Bradbury would be one of her fans, since her life experiences read like a Bradbury story.

Skelton was probably interested in her pantomimes and other aspects of her shows. At any rate, Marta Becket's circus paintings in tribute to Skelton seemed to me to be very relevant to Skelton's own clown paintings. When I went in search of something on the Internet about Skelton's interest in Becket and the Amargosa Hotel, I was disappointed to find nothing. So when I finally read John Mulvihill's "Lost Highway Hotel", I was elated. I inserted the quote in the Skelton entry to share it as an obscure yet fascinating bit of Skelton lore. Pepso 23:52, 1 November 2006 (UTC)

Charlie Skelton

Is Charlie Skelton related to Red?

Pledge of Allegiance

" With the pledge under attack as being "religious", he suddenly regained popularity among those who opposed the lawsuit." What lawsuit?

Is Congressman Ike Skelton related to Red Skelton?

Is Congressman Ike Skelton related to Red Skelton? They look alike.MikeC4Me 03:31, 21 January 2007 (UTC)

Picture

While the caricature is amusing and fitting for Skelton, I submit that an actual picture of Skelton in his heyday would be more fitting as the first picture to be seen. Both pre-existing pictures are useful, good content, but there's got to be a better picture of Red Skelton. 24.125.125.62 04:42, 29 January 2007 (UTC)

Just wanted to point out that it has an uncanny resemblance to Conan O'Brien. --Gakhandal 05:19, 2 February 2007 (UTC)

I think only a photograph is appropriate for the infobox for a person who has been photographed. A caricature assumes that the viewer already knows how the person looks. I think it's fine to include this image in the article, just not in the infobox. Richard K. Carson (talk) 05:30, 5 February 2009 (UTC)

Performances, inconsistent ?

In the "Films" section it states that "...Red would abstain from performing for the next decade and a half..." and in the "Aftermath" section it states "Skelton returned to live performance after his television days ended, in nightclubs and casinos and resorts, as well as performing such venues as Carnegie Hall. Many of those shows yielded segments that were edited into part of the Funny Faces video series on HBO's Standing Room Only.

Those Carnigie Hall performances were in the early 1980's I believe. That isn't quite a decade and a half.

I could be wrong. I don't have official performance dates on them or the "Royal" performance either.Scott Anafas (talk) 04:17, 28 November 2007 (UTC)

his kids

http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0804026/bio

this says he had 2 children and guess what the female was born first. this article said "their only child, son RICHARD, and i changed it. you would think the only gender born in the world are male. even when lising parents ONLY THE MALE IS EVER LISTED. YOU WOULD THINK THEY WERE THE ONES WHO GIVE BIRTH WOULD YOU NOT???? —Preceding unsigned comment added by Moncaido (talk • contribs) 08:53, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Or, someone could have gotten the facts wrong. IT HAPPENS. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 09:19, 24 January 2008 (UTC)

Compatible color

I have removed one of the remarks about compatible color - the one that states that color programs were impossible to watch on networks not using it. This is not true. I remember watching early CBS telecasts of "The Wizard of Oz", which has always been shown on TV in color, on an ordinary small black-and-white TV set from 1959 to 1965, and I never had any problem receiving the picture. AlbertSM (talk) 19:02, 14 July 2008 (UTC)

"Accidental suicide"

"His wife Georgia accidentally committed suicide". You can't "accidentally" commit suicide. You can commit suicide. You can attempt suicide. You can die of accident or misadventure. We should change the wording of this. I'm not doing it myself as I have no idea what the legal findings on cause of death actually were. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 02:18, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

Sure you can. Maybe she was merely cleaning the gun, and it went off. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 02:42, 31 December 2008 (UTC)

That is not "suicide". That is death by accident. -- 201.53.7.16 (talk) 11:53, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Then maybe that's what happened. The item in the article is unsourced, so anything is possible. Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:17, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Meanwhile, here's a poser: If someone attempts suicide and fails, is that "accidental survival"? Baseball Bugs ^{What's up, Doc?} 12:18, 1 January 2009 (UTC)

Notes on copyright violation

I took a look at this for another editor, but realized I was out of my league trying to deal with it solo.

... Some of the Early years subsection and most of the Film, Radio and Television subsections have been copied and pasted from Skelton's website bio. The cut and pastes start here in early 2006. ....

I did take a look and got part of the way through the problem. Yes, text similar to what was introduced into our article does appear to have preexisted at redskelton.com at the time, it took a little playing with the Wayback machine to verify that because of changes to some of the filenames, but compare [1] with the wording after the series of four January 2006 edits that start with the diff above. Some of the sections I looked at, such as that one, looked more like rephrasings but following the same sentence pattern, but I didn't look through all the edits from the IP editor who did these 2006 insertions. --joe decker^{talk to me} 18:29, 7 May 2011 (UTC)

• I think you're right. The insertions are so old, it is a foundational copyvio and hard to clean out. I cleaned out a lot of text from http://www.redskelton.com/BIOGRAPHY.htm.--NortyNort (Holla) 03:37, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

• Thanks.  :) --joe decker^{talk to me} 06:27, 15 May 2011 (UTC)

"Good night and may God bless"

Is that the final version of his weekly phrase?
My 40-year-old recollection as a regular viewer has it as "Good night and God bless", without the "may". That is incorrect?
Either way, it would have been said with his characteristic lisp, as "God bleth".
Varlaam (talk) 00:07, 15 October 2011 (UTC) (Toronto)

Nickname

The article doesn't mention how he got the nickname "Red". Was he originally a redhead? Some other reason? — Quicksilver^{T @} 07:45, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

Yep, nothing more complex than that - he was a redhead. Had he been blonde, the world would no doubt know him as Whitey Skelton. DoctorJoeE ^{review transgressions}/_{talk to me!} 19:44, 11 March 2013 (UTC)

According to a recently aired Johnny Carson interview on TCM from 1983, Red Skelton revealed his middle name was Red. A teacher didn't believe him, so he made up the middle name Bernard. — Preceding unsigned comment added by 2601:7:900:922:C139:1584:9DC3:2875 (talk) 05:09, 26 March 2014 (UTC)

Lead image

Came across this image, which strikes me as a better lead photo. Thoughts? --Wikiwatcher1 (talk) 05:41, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

As stated in my edit summary, the original image is better quality, IMO. Mlpearc (powwow) 05:45, 4 May 2013 (UTC)

Pre-GA comments

Hi We hope, here are a couple comments (following your request at my talk page). I will start with some very general comments, then go into more detailed comments once these have been dealt with.

• Lede should be longer. This article is almost 40k characters in length, meaning (per WP:LEADLENGTH) there should be three or four paragraphs
• Consider merging very short paragraphs ("In 1969, Skelton performed a self-written monologue about the Pledge of Allegiance. In the speech, he commented on the meaning of each phrase of the Pledge. CBS received 200,000 requests for copies; the company subsequently released the monologue as a single recording by Columbia Records" for instance; they are more obvious a bit further south)
• You shouldn't force image size; thumbnail size is enough (see Wikipedia:IMGSIZE)
• Legacy needs some serious work (referencing, information)
• Rather than block referencing at the end of a paragraph, try to reference after individual sentences. It avoid the buildup like [130][131][132][133][134], also known as Citation overkill. If a reference supports the entire sentence, then you don't need more references for that sentence.
• Perhaps consider (though it is by no means required) a chronological approach to writing this biography. FAs such as Peter Sellers and Terry-Thomas might be a useful point of reference. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 07:49, 27 March 2014 (UTC)

User:Crisco 1492, I think I've addressed everything on the list now. Brickbats or bouquets are OK, but please, no  :) We hope (talk) 18:53, 9 May 2014 (UTC)

• I'll try to look into this later today. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 01:26, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

Pre-GA copyedit and comments

This may take a day or two considering the length of the article. Please be patient.

• Ensure that the titles of TV shows are italicised.
• I've removed some empty parameters from the infobox and references
• began entertaining as a youngster. - began entertaining feels awkward
• You jump from childhood to later career to early career in the lede
• Ensure that new paragraphs have Skelton's name in the first paragraph, if appropriate. Going straight to "he" may lose readers
• I find it odd that you linked "film" and not "medicine show", considering one is significantly more well-known than the other.
• He then spent time on a showboat as the era of that form of entertainment was waning. - The second half of that sentence is probably unnecessary detail for the lede. Try to provide contextual information in the body, except where absolutely necessary
• until its comedic standards began to change, coming into vaudeville as radio and films began to replace live entertainment. - Who was coming, vaudeville or Skelton?
• it even opened the door of the Oval Office. - very metaphorical; not sure it's an encyclopedic wording
• enthusiasm was rewarded - this is rather judgmental (showing a POV)
• Hard facts are a little light in the lede; years when he made his debut in radio and TV would be very helpful, as he spent most of his career there
• Skelton's enthusiasm was rewarded with a twenty year career on network television with a highly rated regular program. Despite high ratings, his television show was canceled by CBS in 1970 as the network believed more youth-oriented programs were needed to attract younger viewers and their spending power. - You haven't actually named the show in this paragraph
• While his first wife, comedy writer Edna Stillwell, provided the spark for Skelton the performer, it was his second wife, Georgia Davis, who convinced him that the art work he had done as a hobby for many years was worth sharing with the public. - Lack of years is really hurting my understanding of this.
• the spark for Skelton the performer, - Not sure this is encyclopedic
• Very nice turns of phrase here, but it's hopping all over the place in his life... somewhat hard to follow. I'm getting a quite positive POV as well, from the lede.
• If you give a YOB and YOD for the father, why not the mother?
• As Red's birthdate is not in the body, that means it is uncited in the lede. This is particularly important here as his YOB is contentious
• It was then that he realized what he wanted to do with his life - subject of the last sentence was Wynn
• I'd reorganize the early life section to go birth (including YOB and debate), death of father and newsboy/entry to comedy, medicine show,
• Skelton later copied his father's makeup for his television character, "Freddie the Freeloader". - This would make much more sense if you had already explained that Skelton learned to reproduce his father's makeup, especially if he used it with the circus
• To better segue into the marriage, you could mention the background before moving on to his departure from vaudeville
• Edna, who was not interested in Skelton when they first met, changed her mind after she won a local marathon where he was the emcee. - actual marathon, or danceathon?
• They worked for a year in Camden, New Jersey - starting a section with a pronoun again
• in the belief that they needed more sophisticated jokes and skits than the ones Red had been performing. Skelton was on the verge of failing to connect with his New York audience until he began performing his "Doughnut Dunkers" and other older routines. - Perhaps a conjunction?
• The problem with doing the "Doughnut Dunkers" skit was that Skelton had to eat nine doughnuts at every performance. He was performing five times a day and eating 45 doughnuts. He gained almost 35 pounds rapidly and had to shelve the routine for a while until he lost the weight. - This doesn't segue well; you go straight from FDR to donuts
• Skelton decides he wants all the cake at the 1944 FDR Birthday Ball while John Garfield looks on. - Not encyclopedic, I think
• "Tragedy" is POV for a section title, I think
• met their end - we generally avoid euphemisms (though repeating dying would be bad as well)
• was apparently able to determine - what does "apparently" add to this sentence?
• His previous contract called for MGM's approval prior to his radio shows and other appearances. - I'd introduce this before talking about how his contract was renegotiated
• You've gone off on a vector in between Skelton negotiating his contract, actually getting signed, then hating film, and then not getting his wishes in his contract. Might flow better if chronology was clearer
• He did not receive the desired television clause and was not able to begin working in the medium until his MGM contract completed in 1951. Skelton asked MGM once more for rights to pursue television when his contract was over. This time the studio was willing to grant them, making him the only major MGM personality with the privilege. - Doesn't this contradict itself?

I think that's enough for today. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:20, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

I think I've done everything on this list (have tried to). Can't find the phrase re: "began entertaining as a youngster" nor the film link, even with using Firefox "find" more than once for them. If they haven't been edited out, could you please point out the sentences where they are for me? Thanks, We hope (talk) 23:23, 10 May 2014 (UTC)

• I removed "film", and "began entertaining" is gone now. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:20, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

• He went on the air with his own radio show - Last subject was an advertising man
• Skelton introduced the first two of his many characters during the show's first season. - which show? This is a new paragraph
• Skelton asked for $25,000 from the studio in damages. - did he receive it?
• the pilot of the plane was able to meet Skelton and thank him for the bomber. - if the individual is notable (Wikipedia notable) a name would be nice
  • The news stories offer nothing re: the pilot other than his name and a bit about his WWII service. It looks like he was simply another WWII vet.
• Edna Skelton stated that she - was she still using Skelton?
  • Edna remarried for the first time in 1945-to director Frank Borzage. She was still Skelton then and she was known as Edna Skelton professionally until her remarriage.
    • Alright. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:13, 12 May 2014 (UTC)
• You didn't mention he joined the entertainment corps until "As part of the entertainment corps"
• The paragraph about Skelton's marriage with Georgia Maureen Davis doesn't flow well. I'd merge the bit about Davis to the bit about the "almost" Mrs Skelton (along with some background on how Davis ended up marrying Skelton).
• who had hit the canvas too often - unencyclopedic; very difficult for someone unfamiliar with boxing to understand what you mean
• could not get anything right - also feels somewhat informal
• a fellow who had a few too many drinks - this too... " a drunk", perhaps?
• who never met a scam he did not like - who was easily scammed?
• the Paley plan that offered stars significant tax savings if they incorporated, then sold their shows to CBS, applied to radio shows only. - you haven't mentioned television all paragraph. This feels like it comes out of nowhere
• Why is the 1994 hall of fame induction coming when the narrative is still at 1954?
• I wouldn't mix bureaucracy and the skits. They are both different aspects of the show
• He curtailed his drinking - you haven't mentioned him being an alcoholic yet.
• Between 1955 and 1960 the program was broadcast in color approximately 100 times. - How many in B&W
  • We can try to average it with 52 weeks in a year, but this doesn't take into consideration that most of the major television shows of the day had "summer replacement" programs aired in their place during the summer hiatus. Using Perry Como as an example, when he made the 1959 business deal with Kraft Foods that brought him to Perry Como's Kraft Music Hall, the deal included Como's being in charge of the summer television programs which replaced the Music Hall. So you see his production company, Roncom, as the producer of shows like Perry Presents, Kraft Mystery Theatre and Kraft Suspense Theatre; designed to replace the Como show for summer. We hope (talk) 14:04, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
    • Don't think that'll work; hopelessly OR. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• subsequent death of Richard Skelton at the age of nine - you haven't mentioned in text when he was born
  • I've now given the years both children were born with refs. The problem is that both Adir and Hyatt say Richard's birthday was June 14, 1948, but in an interview given by Skelton just after his son's death, he says it was May 20. The news story goes on about his choosing birthday gifts from a catalog the morning before his death. FamilySearch has transcripts of the California Birth Index and California Death Index--both say he was born on May 20, 1948 just as his father said. They don't offer a hard copy of either, as they do for older marriages, so it's not a matter of being able to grab a copy, upload it to Commons as PD-California (as Paul and I were able to do with Jo Stafford's first marriage). Suggestions, please. We hope (talk) 17:47, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
    • I've never cited such things, but you can't really get more official than the death index or birth index. Why not cite the California Death Index, as recommended on FamilySearch? — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:13, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

They do have some of the various California county birth and death records online but there's no index to them. All you can do is browse. Spent over an hour with the LA County death certificates online there for 1958 hoping to find the death certificate. No idea how they were filmed because they're not in alphabetic order nor organized by date of death. They jump from May to March and even January in spots. Know I viewed well over 1,000 files there but had no luck; will cite the death index as you suggested. We hope (talk) 00:36, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Young Richard's death on May 10, 1958, was a major blow to the entire family; - is it really necessary to start two paragraphs with very similar information, and a similar tone? I think these two paragraphs need to be reworked
• Is the Georgia shooting necessary, even as a footnote?
  • It was very well covered by the press (plenty of newspaper stories) when it happened. Years later, there have been some who have called it a suicide attempt. This can't be proven, of course, and the Clark County, Nevada Sheriff's Office declared it an accidental shooting after their investigation, so the official word is that it was an accidental shooting. Better to leave the footnote?
    • In that case, if we can source that it has been called a suicide attempt, I'd make this a footnote to the paragraph about her suicide. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:37, 11 May 2014 (UTC)
• Might be nice to mention when he returned to full time TV; last we saw he was out for a month, and suffering after his son's death
• Pinocchio - perhaps link somewhere?
• A particularly poignant one - according to whom?
• He attributed his use of few props to his early days when he did not want to have a lot of luggage, so he crafted routines that used few of them. Skelton admitted that the right hat was the key to his being able to get into character. - Neither sentence ties in well with the pantomime
• I've added President in front of Nixon; if we're going to do it for FDR, we should do it for Tricky Dick too.
• Make sure there are no spaces between periods and refs / footnotes (or footnotes/refs or refs/refs)
• Skelton was deeply affected by the loss of his ex-wife. - how?
• Off the air and bitterness... but there's a lot of awards showing up
• The bit about licensing Skelton's shows for resyndication ties in with bitterness well, but I'd rework it to be chronological
• The paragraph starting with the Royal Command Performance doesn't tie in with bitterness much
• The section #Death is quite short. I'd try to merge it with his later career (perhaps that RCP) so that we don't have a one-paragraph section
• Skelton had homes in Palm Springs and later in Anza, California. - really doesn't tie with anything else in this paragraph
• I've gone down to #Death and am stopping for today. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 11:09, 11 May 2014 (UTC)

Red Skelton as Freddie the Freeloader and Terry-Thomas

This image may be useful, either cropped or in full. Skelton is facing into the text (per MOS:IMAGE, this is desirable), and Terry-Thomas is notable as an actor (whereas Linda Sue Risk does not have an article yet). — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:26, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• On a side note, I've mentioned this article and our push for GA/FA to SchroCat, who has helped write several FAs on actors from this period (including Terry-Thomas and Hattie Jacques). He has expressed interest in having a look as well. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 00:30, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Skelton originals are priced at $80,000 and upward - As of?
• the Red Skelton Room in the Amargosa Hotel, where Skelton stayed four times in Room 22. - read this again: it looks as if Room 22 is part of the Red Skelton Room, rather than the hotel
• That quote is rather promotional of the hotel.
• his own Japanese and Italian gardens and bonsai trees at his home in Palm Springs, California. - does one create a bonsai tree?
• Perhaps spell out degree in the Freemasonry paragraph?
• Since he believed making people laugh was his mission in life, Skelton was able to share his gift of laughter under surprising circumstances. - POV
• lost two of its four engines - or lost use of?
• First paragraph of #Legacy and tributes has three different topics, which don't quite segue. Consider splitting or reworking (the bit about the army could be moved further north, since the bit about the army is rather short
• in bygone days, - don't think "bygone days" is quite encyclopedic
• Marcel Marceau and Red Skelton shared a special friendship and mutual admiration of each other's work. - I'd suggest moving the image of Skelton and Marceau down here, and then the Terry-Thomas image can go above. The section #Legacy and tributes is all text; breaking it up with an image would help.
• was dedicated on Friday, February 24, 2006, on the campus of Vincennes University at a cost of $16.8 million. - doubt the dedication itself was 16.8 million dollars. The sentence should be reworked
• Work continues to complete the Red Skelton Gallery and Education Center that will house Skelton memorabilia donated by the comedian's family. - where?
• Restoration continues at the historic Vincennes Pantheon Theatre, - as of?
• Watch for overlinking. The only one I can see is Palm Springs, but there may be more. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 02:54, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Overall looks fairly comprehensive, but the flow still needs some work; quite a bit seems to come out of nowhere and disappear just as quickly.

I'll continue working my way through these lists. The problem with young Richard's date of birth, with two Skelton book authors getting it wrong, is one of the reasons I like using newspaper cites a lot. The older papers are like a "capture" of the time and the event and often give you facts that may not have made it into books about the subject. Google News Archive had been miserable to search for quite a while; it's gotten better as of late but there are times when you have to work at finding the right combination of search words to get what you're looking for. Will be quite the happy camper if we're able to have one/some of the newspaper archives donate some subscriptions for WP editors! We hope (talk) 03:57, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Do you know anybody with access to Highbeam? There are several editors who have free subscriptions through Wikimedia (I had one, but used it so rarely [I think only for three articles: Hetty Sarlene, Dancing on the Ceiling, and Just for You] that I didn't extend it). I think Schro does. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:25, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

Like you, I also had Highbeam and didn't extend it because it didn't seem to be giving me information about the topics I was working on. This would be a dream come true. There's a plus to being able to view the original news pages--you often spot a story about something or someone else that becomes a good ref elsewhere. ;) We hope (talk) 04:42, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

• Another note, just brainstorming really: to draw readers, after this passes GA we can push the article through DYK... I'd make a hook about Skelton earning more money through his art than his comedy... that would be interesting. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 04:26, 12 May 2014 (UTC)

OK, I think I've managed to get to everything. If not, it's because I missed it on the lists and not because I either don't agree or am being difficult. :) While I was looking for a good ref re: Skelton's sketches, I ran into something that surprised me. I'd always thought that the character George Appleby's ill-fitting glasses were part of the character until I read that after Richard's death, Skelton wore his son's glasses when he performed Appleby. File:Red Skelton Eve Arden George Appleby 1963.JPG--now when you look at a photo of him as Appleby, you can see that the eyeglasses frames are way too small for the grown man's face. We hope (talk) 03:43, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

• Alright, good luck with the GAN. If you want to go on to FAC, this can go to PR first and I can contact some people who are interested in the subject area so that we can get more pre-reviews. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 06:32, 14 May 2014 (UTC)

Film work

The reference to Buster Keaton seems to come out of nowhere Could the original author clarify "while he and Buster Keaton were at work on a film" means? Were they co-stars? Was Keaton producing Red's movies at MGM? (I happen to know the answer...but am bringing this up as a means to show how this idea, as worded, brings up questions that aren't answered.) ShelbyMarion (talk) 12:54, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

I see what you mean. Keaton worked for MGM doing some comedy writing/consulting after he no longer starred in films. More than one Skelton film was a remake of one of Keaton's with a different name and star on the screen. The Theater and Cinema of Buster Keaton By Robert Knopf. Red Skelton: The Mask Behind the Mask By Wes Gehring. A Southern Yankee was originally The General and I Dood It! was Spite Marriage--both with Keaton as the star of the earlier films. The Bob Thomas news story is from 1947 and puts Skelton on the set of The Fuller Brush Man, with Thomas quoting Skelton as saying "not my field". Gehring also says it's 1947 but says Skelton's words were "not my friend". I need to rework this and add some notes to explain how Keaton and Skelton were working together. We hope (talk) 17:37, 8 May 2014 (UTC)

GA Review

This review is transcluded from Talk:Red Skelton/GA1. The edit link for this section can be used to add comments to the review.

Reviewer: Zanimum (talk · contribs) 15:31, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

I'll review. -- Zanimum (talk) 15:31, 17 May 2014 (UTC)

Artwork

In the last two days, you both caught the missing period, and added an image, as I was going to suggest. Good stuff! I love the ten thousand quip. I've never heard of franchise licenses being used in the gallery world, that's fascinating.

I still can't believe we found a photo of one of Skelton's originals that's PD! We hope (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Other interests

• I'm wondering if the Muzak reference at least needs a two or three word summary of what the company was? (I'd say is, but I believe the current owners have retired the name.) Many people likely have heard the term muzak being used, but never realized that it was a company.
• When dealing with rolls of still negatives, wouldn't film be the plural? I think films is only used for motion pictures.

Have given a brief description of what Muzak was and changed films to film We hope (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Fraternity and honors

• Keep using the 10K stat, even though it seems a little too guesstimatey.

Awards and recognition

• "Skelton also has stars": what about "Skelton also has two stars" or "separate stars"? While the Hollywood Walk of Fame is world famous, I don't think that many realize that you can have more than one star on it. (Heck, I don't think many people realize that radio personalities can have stars on the Walk, but that's another issue entirely.)

Made it "has two stars". We hope (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Legacy and tributes

• Perhaps wikilink Charley Chase? Quite honestly, I've never heard that name before.
• There are instances where breaking up a quote is appropriate, like in the case of pausing for effect in the "I don't know why it's always clowns." quote earlier in the article. Also, if you're cutting a chunk out, it's acceptable, like the start of the Marx quote in this section. But for the most part, quotes should be used uninterrupted; we're not a magazine. Personally, I'd remove the "he said" in Bergen's quote, and move the text about Groucho witnessing a performance to before the start of that quote. I personally don't take offence to the format, but you'll likely receive criticism for the use when you nominate this for FAC (which I hope is on your radar).

Wikilinked Charley Chase, joined the Bergen quote and changed the order from Bergen-Marx to Marx-Bergen. We hope (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Filmography

• Perhaps "(1944) (voice)" could be "(1944, voice)", et cetera?

Changed the voice and cameo role notations to what you suggested. We hope (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Bibliography

• Was Groucho And Me published by both B. Geis Associates and Random House?

Added that Random House was the distributor of the book, according to Google Books' information on it. We hope (talk) 21:48, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

More to come later. -- Zanimum (talk) 18:49, 19 May 2014 (UTC)

Looking good! I'll try and get back on this, as soon as I can. -- Zanimum (talk) 01:18, 21 May 2014 (UTC)

Passing lead.

The doughnut dunkers

• I'm seeing the Montreal section in the LA Times article, but nothing about a "language barrier". Montreal was very anglo at the time, the it cultural and business city in Canada before Toronto took over. (Side note of curiousity, the Princess Theatre where he played was the site Houdini took his fatal punch to the stomach. The place killed one career, and made another.)

Removed language barrier. Knew Houdini's fatal punch came as part of his act, but didn't know it was in Montreal at the Princess Theatre. We hope (talk) 01:44, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Passing "Film work", "Radio, divorce and remarriage".

"I dood it!"

Pass. I sincerely hope some military history buff writes an article on this bomber.

Divorce from Edna, marriage to Georgia

Never knew that re: Ozzie and Harriet

A cast of characters

• You need a space before Verna's name in the photo caption.

Done. We hope (talk) 01:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

• Did the Ziv Radio show continue for all three years?

Something quite interesting just turned up in a search re: Ziv. Turns out that Skelton owned the rights to all of his old radio shows and the three year deal was to syndicate a daily show with a "blend" of old and new material in them. This was much like Easy Aces where the Aces owned the rights and syndicated their shows through Ziv after they were no longer on the air with new ones. At that time, very few performers owned the rights to their radio shows. Skelton made statements in 1956 that he was holding off from making more films after his MGM contract completed with regard to not wanting to work simultaneously in film, television and radio again-that would leave him working in television for CBS and radio for Ziv, as his CBS show was over in 1953, when the statement was made. I've seen nothing to indicate that either Skelton or Ziv wanted to end the agreement before the three years were done in 1957. We hope (talk) 00:59, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Used ref and described more about the Ziv-syndicated radio show. Re-cited the 1956 ref where he said he would never work in film, radio and TV all at once again. We hope (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Television

• "By 1959, Skelton was the only comedian with a regularly scheduled weekly television show.": I presume you mean a scheduled weekly sketch or variety television show?

There were a lot of comedians with television programs in the early days of television. Two which come to mind right away are Sid Caesar and Milton Berle. Both had highly rated shows in the early days. Somehow the programs of both were no longer getting people to tune in each week, and the shows were cancelled. Berle was under a 30 year contract to NBC as of 1951. By 1960, he was the host of Jackpot Bowling, as NBC tried to recoup at least some of their investment in him. Skelton was the only one of that early TV era who was able to keep people watching year after year for 20 years. We hope (talk) 02:32, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Tried clarifying this with a ref and an example of Danny Thomas, who was on the air at the time with Make Room For Daddy sitcom as nightclub owner Danny Williams. We hope (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Young Richard's illness and death

• Was it just the troupe called "The Friends of Red Skelton", or did they bill the special as The Friends of Red Skelton?

The troupe who performed called themselves "The Friends of Red Skelton" and the show was billed as "The Friends of Red Skelton Variety Show". We hope (talk) 02:09, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Added title of special program. We hope (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

The Red Skelton Hour

• Photo caption, isn't Freddie/Red on the right? Stage left, but it's our right, I'd say.

Skelton is dressed as a sailor (left) and Mickey Rooney is playing Skelton's wife. At right are an emcee with his dummy--this because they're doing a parody of the show Do You Trust Your Wife? where the first host of it was Edgar Bergen. We hope (talk) 01:56, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Added this detail to the photo caption. We hope (talk) 20:11, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Passing "Off the air and bitterness", "Skelton onstage", "Later years and death" (I would say to link this special to the resultant series Pioneers of Television, but we don't have an article on it, so...). -- Zanimum (talk) 00:09, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

Look good! GA! -- Zanimum (talk) 20:41, 28 May 2014 (UTC)

News stories re: the bomber Skelton bought via his radio show

In case someone wants to start an article about the Soviet Army bomber Red Skelton collected funds for through his radio program, here are some news story links with some history of the plane. We hope (talk) 13:54, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• The Milwaukee Journal November 25, 1986.

• Beaver County Times May 25, 1993.

• New York Times November 6, 1986.
• This is... very interesting. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:23, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Just added the note to the article that the last pilot (the third--this is the one who met Skelton in 1993) said he would have thanked Skelton some time earlier, but a US diplomat told him that Skelton was dead. We hope (talk) 14:49, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• I can imagine a "We Dood It!" bomber article. That would be fun to work on. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 14:52, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Let's see if we can come up with any more sources to flesh this out a bit. We hope (talk) 14:54, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

• Right, of course. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 15:55, 29 May 2014 (UTC)

Featured Article?

I encourage the contributors here to take this article all the way to FAC. But, then, of course, you probably already had that in mind. — Maile (talk) 15:10, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

That's the plan, yes. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:27, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Cauliflower, Clem, San Fernando Red, Freddie and George...and, of course, Gertrude and Heathcliff...are smiling upon you. — Maile (talk) 17:53, 30 May 2014 (UTC)

Good to hear. -- Zanimum (talk) 13:43, 31 May 2014 (UTC)

Structure as biography

FWIW, one question of this and other bios, like Peter Sellers and Charlie Chaplin', always jumps out at me, and it's why have a separate "Biography" section for a biography article? It seems that every aspect of the article is biographical, as it should be. But as I'm only a drive-by, I'll just add that I feel a "Personal life" section is more useful and intuitive than co-mingling his career with his marriages and family problems, as details are easier to find, although that preference didn't get too far on Sellers or Chaplin. And if anyone feels a PD portrait photo of his attractive daughter at HS graduation would be of benefit, let me know. --Light show (talk) 00:47, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

For my part, I'll pass. We hope (talk) 00:50, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Copyright status of the 1952 Skelton television show at archive.org

1952 Skelton show used as a reference in the article. Skelton's television show aired on NBC from 1951 to 1953. The show won two Emmy Awards in 1952, which Skelton displays at the start of the program. Original copyright records under motion pictures were checked for the years 1951, 1952 and 1953; there were no registrations for NBC. Copyright renewals were checked for "Red Skelton" at copyright.gov. The earliest renewal for any of the television shows was in 1956, by CBS, as Skelton had moved to the network in 1954. There's no evidence of either original copyright or any renewal for the program cited in the article. We hope (talk) 01:20, 2 July 2014 (UTC)

Typo?

I'm translating this article to Chinese, but found a minor problem:

footnote 57: "Ghering, p.171", is this a typo for "Gehring, p.171"? If not, I can't found this book anywhere.--Jarodalien (talk) 03:57, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

That was a typo-it's Gehring and now fixed, thanks! We hope (talk) 05:01, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

User:We hope, here's another problem, a little bit bigger, footnote 69, "Reed, p. 46", but I can't found this book anywhere. And the link Charles Walter is a redirect to Carl Walter, accroding to the article, he "was a German-born botanist and photographer who worked in Australia", so it should be wrong to link this person.--Jarodalien (talk) 05:31, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Reid, John Howard (2006). Hollywood Movie Musicals. Lulu.com. ISBN 978-1-4116-9762-1. another typo. We hope (talk) 12:26, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

Charles Walter=Charles Walters-another typo. We hope (talk) 12:29, 6 August 2014 (UTC)

more, the short subject, is The Broadway Buckaroo or The Bashful Buckaroo?--Jarodalien (talk) 10:40, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Broadway We hope (talk) 12:50, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

There's a bigger problem about the source:

• "Clown Hall Of Fame, Baraboo". City of Baraboo, Wisconsin. 1989-04-26. Retrieved 2014-08-07.

But this web is completely copy from Wikipedia! You can see "From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Jump to: navigation, search"!--Jarodalien (talk) 15:56, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

The city website attributed their copy to Wikipedia and did not try to copyright it as was done by Skelton's own website and the Hollywood Chamber of Commerce--see above. I'd rather remove the cite and I did--we have other cites for this. We hope (talk) 16:19, 7 August 2014 (UTC)

Translation complete about10 hours ago, looks ok now, thanks for this wonderful, wonderful article (I feel this is the best sample of American dream) and your follow up. Last suggestion: consider that Skelton turn down the role that will eventually bring Burns Academy Award, I feel is worth mention this in the article, just one line, and the source is very easy to find.--Jarodalien (talk) 12:30, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Skelton turned down the role of Willy Clark, which then went to Walter Matthau. When Jack Benny, who was to play Al Lewis, realized he was too ill to accept the role, he recommended his long time friend, George Burns, for it. Burns won the Academy Award for best supporting actor, while Matthau was nominated for best actor, but didn't win the Oscar. I think some mention should be made of what Skelton turned down, as years before, he was saying he didn't get any good scripts. We hope (talk) 13:46, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Then I was wrong, is Benny lost an Oscar, not Skelton. Thank you.--Jarodalien (talk) 15:06, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Lead

The second paragraph of the lead is ridiculously large and stands out like a sore thumb. Could it be trimmed a bit? Taylor Trescott - ^{my talk} + _{my edits} 16:11, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

• A few more of those films would do the trick, I think. — Crisco 1492 (talk) 16:26, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Some of the films were mentioned and linked in the lead and film section. I trimmed what I saw as doubles from the lead and put the television material in it as a separate paragraph. We hope (talk) 17:19, 8 August 2014 (UTC)

Full Legal Name

According to Skelton's 1983 appearance on the Tonight Show, his full legal name was Richard Red Skelton, with his legal middle name being Red. But a teacher insisted that had to be a nickname and he had to find out his real middle name even though he kept telling her Red, so he finally made up Bernard.

--74.65.49.92 (talk) 16:33, 5 December 2014 (UTC)

But we can't use You Tube as a ref due to the fact that the copy you're viewing there is copyrighted to NBC, who didn't post the You Tube clip. We hope (talk) 17:08, 5 December 2014 (UTC)