Talk:Red State

Vandalistic redirect

"Real America" redirects here. Very funny, but I think I'll put an end to that. Wormwoodpoppies (talk) 22:49, 4 January 2009 (UTC)

Requested move 22 July 2024

The following is a closed discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review after discussing it on the closer's talk page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.

The result of the move request was: not moved. Andrewa (talk) 09:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

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Red State → Red state – grammar: not always a proper noun/name (so lowercase in general). dchmelik☀️🦉🐝🐍(talk|contrib) 02:05, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

• Leaning oppose: This is a disambiguation page, and "Red State" seems more ambiguous than "Red state", which has a primary topic: Red states and blue states. Note that the nominator edited the Red state redirect yesterday to change its target. Before that change, the redirect target had been stable for 13 years. I just reverted that change. Perhaps this should be moved to Red state (disambiguation) instead, with Red State also redirected to Red states and blue states. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:57, 22 July 2024 (UTC)
• Observation: Blue State is a similar disambiguation page, and Blue state has been a stable redirect to Red states and blue states for twenty years. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 03:48, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The thing is there isn't one main definition of 'red state' so it shouldn't be redirected to 'red states and blue states', which is only about usage in USA, and isn't the main worldwide usage (see top of current disambiguation page for what that is (nation-states like Red China and other such 'reds', predating USA usage by many decades)). I'd be fine with adding '(disambiguation)' to the title, but terms without that should redirect to that. Capitalizing 'state' isn't less ambiguous, just more incorrect when not talking about a state named 'Red State' or particular media (films, weblog) that have that name/title)... read and you'll see even in USA no reliable periodical says 'Red States' rather than 'red states' when only talking about them in general, because it's not a name/title (incorrect to capitalize).--dchmelik☀️🦉🐝🐍(talk|contrib) 10:15, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

The Red flag (politics) article doesn't even contain the phrase "red s(S)tate". The phrase is not commonly used with that meaning. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 16:49, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

Here's usage in USA mainstream media: Time: 'CHINA: Cultural Aggression', so while you're right that line didn't yet meet standards, it should nevertheless be included in a more worldwide & historical & general article about different meanings of the term. The term is also used in labour/socialist/communist writing/media. It's against Wikipedia rules to 'correct'/reformat others' posts; most people including me don't put bullet points in front of inset replies because it looks bad/messy.--dchmelik☀️🦉🐝🐍(talk|contrib) 01:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

I don't believe I reformatted anyone else's posts here. Since you dislike the bullet that I used in my prior remark, I have removed it. I agree that it looked bad. Thanks for finding that (73-year-old) example. However, I still think that usage is rather rare (which is easily confirmed by a web search for the string). —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 01:50, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

• Lower case., since 50% of the four "red state/Red State" entries are not capitalized proper names. (The 5th entry, "RedState", really belongs in "See also", since it does not actually match the page title).  — SMcCandlish ☏ ¢ 😼  15:36, 22 July 2024 (UTC)

  But the question is whether "Red state" (with lowercase) is ambiguous or not. "Red state" has a primary topic, so this disambiguation page shouldn't be moved to that title. Perhaps this should be moved to Red state (disambiguation), but not to Red state. Also, one of the lowercase topics fails WP:DABMENTION, so it shouldn't even be listed on the dab page. The reason this page is at Red State is that there are two uppercase topics (or three if you count RedState, which I would), so the uppercase term is ambiguous. The lowercase term is not ambiguous. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 20:56, 23 July 2024 (UTC)

The question isn't ambiguity but that the entry for lowercase 'red state' is classified under improper grammar/capitalization for it in this disambiguation... I have now also shown the lowercase term to be ambiguous, anyway (see Time article) which also isn't a primary article but redirect that should redirect here (as people searching for uppercase terms don't always type in uppercase).--dchmelik☀️🦉🐝🐍(talk|contrib) 01:15, 24 July 2024 (UTC)

This is a disambiguation page. It should not be moved to a title that has a primary topic. The lowercase title has a primary topic, so the page should not be moved as proposed. The degree of ambiguity of the lowercase title is very small – the alternative meaning exists, but it is very rarely used, and the linked topic fails WP:DABMENTION. Uppercase is not improper capitalization if it is identifying the title of a film, and there are two films with that uppercased title. The disambiguation page could hypothetically be moved to Red state (disambiguation), but I don't think that's necessary or desirable. —⁠ ⁠BarrelProof (talk) 02:47, 25 July 2024 (UTC)

• Oppose per BarrelProof's convincing argument. Dicklyon (talk) 15:44, 27 July 2024 (UTC)

• Closing comment: No prospect of consensus to move. Andrewa (talk) 09:39, 29 July 2024 (UTC)

The discussion above is closed. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made on the appropriate discussion page. No further edits should be made to this discussion.