Talk:Reg Saunders

Ideas for improvement/expansion

G'day, I have the following ideas for improvement/expansion to take this article towards GA:

• expand the early life section to include his mother's name and mention his younger brother, who currently isn't mentioned until his death is being announced. Incidentally there appears to be some confusion about the brother. The source in the article says that it was Reg's younger brother, however, from the WW2 Nom Roll, it appears that Harry was older and that he was killed in November 1942 while serving with the 2/14th Infantry Battalion [1]. This confusion will probably need to be cleared up;
• remove the information that is not related to the Korean War section from that section and place it into a separate "inter war years" section, or something similar;
• expand the Korean War section;
• work in mention of his family (the two marriages), if available and obviously being mindful of BLP issues;
• if there is one available, maybe include a quote from the subject in a quote box. AustralianRupert (talk) 06:10, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
  • Heh, should be able to oblige on most or all of those, mate, particularly the Korean War part -- next week I'll try to stop by the Mitchell Library again to get more from the official history, plus Forbes' Korean War: Australia in the Giants' Playground, which has a good deal on Saunders and his forebears, including some decent quotes. I've also found in online sources that his nephew fought in Vietnam, so will aim to add that shortly. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:29, 24 March 2012 (UTC)
    • Cheers, Ian. BTW, I didn't know that about his nephew; that would be a great addition. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 21:34, 24 March 2012 (UTC)

Just a note since I'll be away this weekend and may not touch the internet...

• Heh, I should've checked this page when I was in the Mitchell yesterday evening to make my updates, will look into that confusion re. the brother -- I'm pretty sure Harry was younger but will need to get the sources lined up for that, and also for his death.
• I think Korea is done now, and I've suggested a way to keep the two paras in one section.
• Added some quotes though not in boxes because they were pretty closely related to the main text.
• I think we can name his mum from among the sources we already have in the article, will check.
• We could probably get the further family details and 'stand-alone' quotes you're interested in, but they'd be in other sources. If I do mine those I think we might be taking this to the next level, i.e. A/FA, which I'd be more than happy to do at some stage but on the other hand I think we have enough for GA once the brother's age/death confusion is sorted out -- WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 22:40, 12 April 2012 (UTC)
  • G'day, Ian, I've added a bit more today. Everything I've read indicates that Harry was younger, so I'm not sure why the Nominal Roll says different. Unfortunately, nothing I've read actually provides Reg's mother's name. Anyway, please check what I've added and adjust how you see fit. Thanks for your work on this, what you've added looks good. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 12:24, 13 April 2012 (UTC)
    • PS, I forgot to add, I'd be happy for a run at GAN once you've checked my additions. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 12:47, 14 April 2012 (UTC)
      • I found mention of Saunders returning to playing football in a book on Google Books, playing for Stratford in the Gippsland League after Korea. I'm not sure if its important, but I will add it here in case you want to try to find the book. Unfortunately Google Books doesn't seem to include the page numbers. [2]. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:04, 15 April 2012 (UTC)
        • Hi mate, I found Forged by War in GoogleBooks too and was going to add some things but you beat me to it...! That was one of the spots I noticed his nephew was in Vietnam (there's also a newspaper article) although I gather now they were related by marriage not blood. I also have full access through the Mitchell Library to an online copy of Fighters From the Fringe, by the same guy who wrote Black Diggers, which includes some interviews, so let me read through that and add stuff (as well as go through your last round of edits) and then I think we may even have enough for A-Class, as well as GA -- might as well go for broke, eh? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 00:52, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
          • Sounds good, Ian. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 03:38, 21 April 2012 (UTC)
            • Okay, added material from Fringe -- let me know if you think we've gone overboard on the quotes, but could've added a lot more! I might still expand the lead a bit per ACR/FAC convention but essentially I think it's about there -- WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 14:58, 30 April 2012 (UTC)
              • Heh, spoke too soon, found another source with a chapter on him so I'd better go through it to ensure we've captured and finetuned all we can. Will get on to that shortly. Incidentally, there's also full-blown bio from a while back called The Embarrassing Australian (don't much care for the title, even though it's obviously meant ironically) but I don't think we need get into it because most of our existing sources mine it extensively for their information. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 03:42, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

G'day, Ian. Those changes look good. I think you are right about the bio. Most of what I've read references it, so I think we have a decent level of coverage. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 12:15, 1 May 2012 (UTC)

Whew, now I think I'm done... ;-) I left my explanation for overriding a couple of Lennox's assertions in favour of Ramsland/Mooney (the latest source I discovered, as mentioned just above) in the edit summary for the relevant additions/changes. Haven't used every scrap of interesting info from their book by any means, but I felt I got everything vital. I feel now we've got an article that should be able to go all the way to FAC without substantial changes/additions, which is what I was hoping we could achieve -- time will tell of course! Anyway, pls check over and see what you think, then I reckon we go for GAN in the first instance -- happy to do the nom and add you in as cohort, or vice versa, whichever you like. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 05:49, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Those additions look good, cheers. I agree with using Ramsland and Mooney over Lennox - good call. I made a couple of minor tweaks to the format of the citations; please feel free to change back if you don't like. I've nominated for GAN now, listing it as a co-nom. Truth be told, though, most of the credit should go to yourself. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 08:39, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

No, no, it's a joint effort (although what's that saying, "What's yours is mine and what's mine is joint"? Something like that!) Oh, by the way, I was told by Nikki (I think) at FAC a while back that the short format of citations should be similar to the long format in the references section, therefore we should say "Ramsland; Mooney", not "Ramsland and Money"... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 08:46, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Interesting. Can't say I've ever seen it used before. Looks strange, but no worries. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:04, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

I'm note sure why, but for whatever reason, I can't seem to get the co-nom comment to show on the GAN page. Sorry about that. I see that you've fixed it by editing the GAN page - good solution. Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 09:18, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Ah, but now GA bot has its say. Apologies for this, I appear to have mucked it up. AustralianRupert (talk) 09:23, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Don't worry, for some reason it doesn't display your co-nom note on this page but it's on the GAN page. Well, karma says one should always review at least one other GAN when one nominates, so if we each do one Reg'll be responsible for double the backlog reduction... ;-) Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 10:17, 4 May 2012 (UTC)

Coming to this late, I see you were having trouble finding his mother's name, the CWGC Debt of Honour record for Harry[3] states: "Son of Christopher and Mabel Saunders, of Heywood, Victoria; step-son of Phyllis Saunders, of Heywood, Victoria." so presumably Reg's mother was Mabel. I've added this as an additional where Harry's death is mentioned. I'll leave it to you if this is sufficient to add the mother's name into the earlier part of the article (my understand is that the "Additional Information" setion of these records was compiled by sending a form to the next-of-kin for them to return - I think it was pre-populated with some details from army records). I notice that his age at death is given as 23, which would make him older than Reg. David Underdown (talk) 10:23, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

On the other hand, the father's service record http://mappingouranzacs.naa.gov.au/file-view.html?b=6942895&s=B2455&c=SAUNDERS%20WALTER%20CHRISTOPHER%20GEORGE suggests he didn't return home until June 1919, and gives next-of-kin as his mother, and states he was single. I wonder if Harry gave a false age, and that this is ultimately the source of the confusion? David Underdown (talk) 10:39, 30 July 2012 (UTC)

G'day, David, thanks for that information. I seem to remember reading that somewhere, but it's been a while since I've looked at the sources (as you will see above, the age issue has come up before). Ian might be able to shed some light on things when he gets back from his break. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 12:03, 31 July 2012 (UTC)

Father's service in 10th MG Bn

Hi guys, I think the 10th MG Bn reference is an error. There were only five Australian MG Bns (more British ones), but there was a 10th MG Coy? Cheers, Peacemaker67 (talk) 06:25, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

here's a link to a summary of his service which confirms he served with the 3rd MG Bn (the 10th was incorporated into the 3rd) [4] Peacemaker67 (talk) 07:02, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

G'day, good pick up. I've tweaked it and added a footnote discussing the discrepancy in the sources. Does this work for you? Cheers, AustralianRupert (talk) 07:13, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

glad to help, works for me. I guess Forbes worked off the AWM pic caption. I've chased it with the AWM, but they have an enormous backlog. Peacemaker67 (talk) 07:15, 12 May 2012 (UTC)

FYI. I've had a response from the AWM regarding the caption for image P00889.012. They acknowledge that Pte Saunders never served with a “10th MG Bn”, and have amended the caption to correctly reflect his service in the 10th MG Company and later in the 3rd MG Bn. Changes to the caption will upload to the online database within the next few days. Peacemaker67 (talk) 00:43, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

That's good, tks for following up -- once that comes up I think we just use that and the AIF Project page as sources and drop the footnote... Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 01:03, 14 May 2012 (UTC)

It's up. [5]. Cheers. Peacemaker67 (talk) 13:15, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Good work! Anotherclown (talk) 13:25, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

(od) That's great, PM. In terms of this article, however, I've had a think and since we've got reliable sources saying 10th MG Coy and 3rd MG Btn but neither are notable in WP terms (i.e. no articles exist for them) perhaps we don't need to name either, rather we just say he served in the AIF (which, oddly enough, we don't explicitly mention as yet) as a machine gunner -- my source Remembering Aboriginal Heroes in fact puts it just like that -- and also mentions he saw action at Gallipoli -- so we could use it as the solitary citation. WDYT? Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 13:51, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Sure, that works for me, after all, we are talking about his Dad here, not Reg himself. However, it's unlikely he served at Gallipoli, he enlisted in 1916 and didn't leave Australia until May. Peacemaker67 (talk) 14:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Unlikely indeed...! Tks for nipping that one in the bud -- think I'll use the AIF Project citation as well. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 23:19, 17 May 2012 (UTC)

Main page appearance

@AustralianRupert: Hi mate, you might've noticed the TFA team have been kind enough to schedule this for the main page on 9 May. I just went through the entire article to check links and updated/tweaked a few that needed it; also uploaded new versions of a couple of images from the AWM minus the watermarks -- so we should be good to go. Cheers, Ian Rose (talk) 06:08, 20 April 2015 (UTC)

G'day, Ian, sorry for the late reply: I've been away with work for a while. Thanks for the tweaks. Regards, AustralianRupert (talk) 16:00, 21 April 2015 (UTC)

Do we know which decoration he turned down for his service in Korea? He later accepted an MBE... — Preceding unsigned comment added by 213.205.251.112 (talk) 07:11, 9 May 2015 (UTC)

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