Talk:Catholic Church in Somalia

Moslem POV

I read, Middayexpress, on your contributions that you are a kind of "specialist" in Somalian topics on en.wikipedia, and I respect your continuous commitment. But I understand even that you are a moslem and you seem to want to "erase" the catholic presence in Somalia even in en.wikipedia. I, as a catholic, feel a bit upset by your denial of catholicism in Somalia. I have added references and you quickly erased those evidences....why? They are not OR. The sentences added can be found here, just before the "after slavery" section. I am sorry, but this is en. wikipedia and I am ready to start a complaint procedure if you revert again.--LittleTony (talk) 02:26, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

moved from LittleTony's talkpage:

Kindly stop adding original research to the Roman Catholicism in Somalia article. You claim the following:

Catholicism was introduced in the part of Somalia that was called Italian Somalia in the late 1800s. The other areas with Somalian people (namely former British Somaliland, French Somaliland, Ethiopian Ogaden and Kenya north-eastern provinces) practically had no catholic presence.

Initially catholicism was practiced only by the few Italian colonists in Mogadishu and the Shebelle river farmer areas. But after WWI many Somalians become catholics: most of them were former black slaves, called Somali Bantu, in the Villaggio Duca degli Abruzzi and Genale plantations.

In 1895, the first 45 slaves were freed by the Italian colonial authority under the administration of the chartered catholic company "Filonardi" and converted to catholicism. Massive emancipation and conversion of slaves in Somalia only began after the antislavery activist father Robecchi Bricchetti informed the Italian public about the slave trade in Somalia and the indifferent attitude of the Italian colonial government toward the trade.

You've indicated that this source supports your edit, even though that source does not even once mention Catholicism. In fact, the last paragraph you paraphrased actually reads as follows:

In 1895, the first 45 slaves were freed by the Italian colonial authority under the administration of the chartered company, V. Filonardi. Massive emancipation of slaves in Somalia only began after the antislavery activist Robecchi Bricchetti informed the Italian public about the slave trade in Somalia and the indifferent attitude of the Italian colonial government toward the trade. Slavery in southern Somalia lasted until early into the 20th century when it was abolished by the Italian colonial authority in accordance with the Belgium protocol. Some inland groups remained in slavery until the 1930s, however.

As can be seen above, it's all about the slave trade, not Catholicism. That is both off-topic & original research (OR) on your part, and OR is not permitted on Wikipedia. Again, please desist with this disruptive behavior. Middayexpress (talk) 05:46, 13 October 2009 (UTC)

Sorry, but what I wrote is not OR. I am adding my source for the first two paragraphs above: "Gresleri, G. Mogadiscio ed il Paese dei Somali: una identita negata. Marsilio editori. Venezia, 1993" --LittleTony (talk) 03:33, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Furthermore, the Filonardi company was partially property of the Vatican. The conversion of slaves was done by catholic missionaries, mainly in the Genale and Villabruzzi, according to Tripodi (Tripodi, Paolo. The Colonial Legacy in Somalia. p. 66). I am going to revert, adding these references. Hope you'll agree. --LittleTony (talk) 03:55, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

Firstly, your material was OR when I wrote that post above. This is easily verifiable by following the links to the actual website in question. Now you have returned with the exact same WP:FRINGE sources a blocked user, one User:DuilioM, attempted to repeatedly add to the Italian Somalians article, and which I explained to him was fringe. Tripodi is the only source here or anywhere else that makes the outrageous claim that "there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle". This is directly contradicted by every other source by doyens of Somali Studies (i.e. actual experts on Somalia), all of whom make it clear that Catholicism never managed to penetrate the Somali community. Even the Catholic Church in Somalia's own website makes it clear that there were only 8,500 Catholics in Somalia in 1950, at the height of the colonial era, not "40,000". That is barely a fraction of the outrageous figure Tripodi & only Tripodi is claiming. Bottom line, Tripodi's theory is fringe since he is the only one claiming this preposterous, grossly inflated figure for the number of Somali Catholics. Furthermore, his claim is contradicted by the authoritative work of multiple sources on Somalia, including ironically that of the Diocese of Mogadishu itself. Tripodi's source is also in Italian, not in English, and Wikipedia makes it clear that "English-language sources are preferable to sources in other languages so that readers can easily verify the content of the article." The only time it makes an exception is when one produces a professional translation of the material in question ("Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors"), which you of course have not done. You've translated it yourself. Lastly, on Wikipedia, Wikipedia:PROVEIT#Exceptional_claims_require_exceptional_sources|Exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Tripodi's assertion that "there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle" is obviously an exceptional claim. This is because Tripodi is the only one claiming this (thereby making it fringe), and this claim is, again, directly contradicted by numerous authoritative sources on Somalia, including that of the Diocese of Mogadishu itself. Tripodi's book also hardly qualifies as an exceptional source, as it isn't even in English to begin with, so what it states is unverifiable for the English-speaking readers of this English website. Kindly stop attempting to insert false or fringe material into the article. Middayexpress (talk) 16:15, 18 October 2009 (UTC)

You, Middayexpress, repeat and repeat and repeat the same things in a byzantine way. Please stop reverting. I am NOT inserting false material. Here it is why:

• Tripodi is not the only source. I have given two more sources and you have changed the phrase where they were referenced (and I'll demonstrate it on a probation case, if needed).
• The phrase (that you erase again and again) ...But after WWI many Somalians become catholics: most of them were former black slaves, called Somali Bantu, in the Villaggio Duca degli Abruzzi and Genale plantations... is taken from Gresleri, G. Mogadiscio ed il Paese dei Somali: una identita negata. p.71 Please, do NOT erase serious sources.
• The Catholic Church in Somalia's own website has data ONLY from 1950 and has NO DATA for the years before WWII. Why you "forget" this?
• Stop repeating the same mistake that "there were only 8,500 Catholics in Somalia in 1950, at the height of the colonial era", because in 1950 we were NOT at the height of the colonial era and we were already in decolonization times all around the world (after WWII). The height of the Italian colonial era was during Fascism, when was conquered Ethiopia and Somalia was enlarged -even as a gift to the Somali soldiers who fought bravely in the Italian colonial army- with the Ogaden.
• I don't care if a banned user has found information about 40000 Somalis catholics and I use the same resources and data: Wikipedia accepts contributions from everyone, if they are well referenced of course. And IMHO they are well referenced. Furthermore, a catholic bishop will NEVER declare such a lie. And for what reason? He has no obligation toward the fascism regime...he is fully independent and to state 9000 or 40000 followers will be the same for him. You are doing OR, without doubt....I repeat, where did you find that the bishop was saying such a lie?
• What are your "Somali studies"? In those 1920s and 1930s the only studies in Somalia where from the Italians and were just a few....and I am talking of studies done in those years and so with contemporary and proven data, not studies done in postwar Somalia based on "supposed old data".
• The population of Italian Somalia in the late 1930s was about 750000, of whom 25000 were Italian colonists/military. How it is possible that the catholics in Somalia were only 8500 at the top?
• The main catholic cathedral -now destroyed- in Mogadishu was similar to one in Sicily. Do you know the capacity? More than 5000 people in the Sicilian one. Usually a cathedral is done -as a rule- to contain in a special/important religious mass about 10% of the catholics of the area. Why they built such a cathedral in Mogadishu, if there were so few catholics? The size of the one in Mogadishu was calculated for a total population in Somalia of nearly 50000 catholics...and this confirms Tripodi, don't you agree?
• Please stop with the complaint that Tripodi's book is not in English. I believe nearly one tenth of the bibliograghy in English Wikipedia is not in English. In the Italian Wikipedia -and I am sure of it- nearly 1/4 of the bibliography is not in Italian, because there are many books in english.
• Excerpt from Italian Somalians talkpage: ..."here it is the exact words in the Tripodi book:Il vescovo di Mogadiscio, don Franco Filippini, dichiarava nel 1940 che vi erano circa 40.000 Somali cattolici, frutto del lavoro missionario specialmente nelle aree agricole del Giuba e dell'Uebi Scebeli (The Bishop of Mogadischu, Franco Filippini, stated in 1940 that there were nearly 40,000 native Somalians of catholic faith, consequence of the missions mainly in the agricultural areas of the rivers Juba and Schebelle). What is wrong with this excerpt? You even agreed initially to post it in the article Italians Somalians.

Finally, where and what are your sources? Please, for the last time, do not revert repeating the same contemporary moslem POVs that the "Catholicism never managed to penetrate the Somali community". This is propaganda not accepted in Wikipedia. Reliable sources demonstrate that there was a penetration in the 1930s, even if small.--LittleTony (talk) 04:52, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

• Yes LittleTony, I'm afraid Tripodi is very much the only source audacious enough to proclaim that as many as 40,000 Somalis were Catholics at any point in their long, storied history, a fact which, as I've already demonstrated above, is directly contradicted by all authoritative sources on the matter including the Catholic Church in Somalia itself. Here is the exact passage you sourced to Tripodi and Tripodi alone (kindly do not backtrack from your own edits now):

"The Bishop of Mogadishu, Franco Filippini, declared in 1940 that there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle, but WWII damaged in an irreversibly way most of the catholic missions in Italian Somalia."

This passage was removed and will keep being removed because it's a fringe theory, as also already explained in detail above.

• Did you even read my version of the article or instead just knee-jerk reverted (something that you're ironically accusing me of)? Contrary to what you claim, I didn't remove the phrase "But after WWI many Somalians become catholics: most of them were former black slaves, called Somali Bantu, in the Villaggio Duca degli Abruzzi and Genale plantations". I removed only a specific portion of it, namely the part which claims that "Somalians became Catholics". This is blatantly misleading, as the Bantus are not Somalis, nor did the Italian colonial authorities ever classify them as such. From Unraveling Somalia: Race, Class, and the Legacy of Slavery by Catherine Lowe Besteman, page 120:

"While upholding the perception of Somalis as distinct from and superior to the European construct of "black Africans", both British and Italian colonial administrators placed the Jubba valley population in the latter category. Colonial discourse described the Jubba valley as occupied by a distinct group of inferior races, collectively identified as the WaGosha by the British and the WaGoscia by the Italians. Colonial authorities administratively distinguished the Gosha as an inferior social category, delineating a separate Gosha political district called Goshaland, and proposing a "native reserve" for the Gosha.

Your attempts to claim that Somalis were Catholics by trying to pass off converted Bantus -- people who are originally from Tanzania, Mozambique and other places in southeastern Africa -- as Somalis are therefore beyond unjustifiable. Even the Italian colonial census of 1935 was careful to differentiate between the Somali majority and the region's Bantu minorities. From Bantu ethnic identities in Somalia by Ken Menkhaus, page 323:

"a colonial census of Italian Somalia (which would obviously not have included the population of British Somaliland) in 1935 concluded that 6.2% of the population was "Negroid groups" a figure which is not far off the estimate given above. See Istituto centrale di statistica, VII censimento generale della populazione V".

• A "gift"? Absurd. Italy played no part whatsoever in the vision of a Greater Somalia. If anything, it was an obstacle to it. And the Fascists' selfish desire to acquire further Somali territory had nothing to do with wanting to unite the Somali people, nor did they even succeed in doing so or is this even relevant to our present discussion. (What you've just expressed, incidentally, is yet another fictitious view that was also held by the now blocked User:DuilioM). 1950 may perhaps not have exactly been the height of the colonial era, but that still doesn't change the fact that the Catholic Church in Somalia's own official estimate for the number of Catholics during the period (which, need I remind you, was still the colonial period -- Italian Somaliland gained independence in 1960) was only 8,500 practitioners, or a measly 0.7% of the population. And of course only a tiny fraction of those folks were actual Somalis rather minority groups. To make this even more clear, a book by Charles Henry Robinson originally published in 1915 (or, what you might describe as the "height" of the colonial era) has this to say about the number of Christian (not just Catholic) missions in Italian Somaliland during the period:

"In Italian Somaliland, which contains about 250,000 Mohammedans and about 50,000 pagans, there are apparently no Christian missions."

The Catholic Encyclopedia from 1913 similarly had this to say about the number of Catholics in all Somali regions during the period, including Italian Somaliland:

"Properly speaking there is no Chrisitianity in Somaliland. The few Christians, perhaps one or two hundred, that can actually be counted, have come from schools and orphanages of the Catholic missions of Aden, Jibuti and of Berbera. As Somaliland is divided into three zones of influence, French, English, and Italian, there are three distinct mission centres: the French Somali coast is under the care of the Vicariate Apostolic of the Gallas, which is entrusted to the French Capuchins of the Province of Lyons; English Somaliland is under the care of the Vicariate Apostolic of Arabia, also confided to the Capuchins; Italian Somaliland was detached in 1904 from the Vicariate Apostolic of Zanzibar, erected into the Precture Apostolic of Benadir and confided to the ancient Order of the Holy Trinity or Trinitarians."

And here's yet another source, a book titled Italy and the Mohammedans of Italian Africa that was published in 1940 (i.e. firmly during the colonial period), asserting the practical non-existence of Somali Christian communities:

"Practically all the inhabitants of Italian Somaliland are Mohammedans."

Are you starting to get the picture now? Your Tripodi source is fringe, and the only reference asserting that outrageous "40,000 Somali Catholics" figure.

• You don't have to care if you are re-inserting the exact same material as a banned user on the exact same articles & expressing what amounts to the exact same views as him. But rest assured, others are taking note of this. Furthermore, try as you might, the Bishop's offhand remark in no way invalidates the many sources I've already cited before and above, especially not that source from the same year (1940) indicating that "practically all the inhabitants of Italian Somaliland are Mohammedans" (that' not "OR", I'm afraid). This only further reinforces the fact that the Tripodi source, again, is fringe, as he is the only reference claiming this.

• The Somali Studies I was referring to is a field of study pertaining to Somalis and Somalia (again, try actually following the links when they are presented to you instead of just answering emotionally). It does not refer to actual studies. And the sources I cite are from the pre-independence period. The only one that isn't is from the Catholic Church in Somalia itself.

• You are comparing the number of Italian settlers in 1930 to those in 1950 (when the "8,500 Catholics in Somalia" figure dates from), and then complaining that the number of Catholics in 1950 does not jibe with the total Italian population circa 1930? Of course it doesn't because, as you yourself have just written, in "1950 we were NOT at the height of the colonial era and we were already in decolonization times all around the world". The Catholic population in Somalia was therefore likely higher than that in the past since the Italian expatriate population was itself a lot more numerous and entirely Catholic. But that's not the issue here. The issue and what you are claiming is that 40,000 Somalis themselves were Catholics only ten years before the Diocese of Mogadishu's estimate of 8,500 Catholic practitioners. This is obviously false because, unlike the Italians, the Somalis did not depart to anywhere; Somalia was, after all, their own country (remember, 1950 was still the colonial period i.e. the "Trusteeship" administration). So the number of Catholic Somalis could not possibly have dropped that precipitously from 40,000 to only 8,500 in that small space of time as you are absurdly claiming.

• The size of the cathedral is irrelevant, nor does it necessarily presuppose that that place of worship was ever even filled to capacity to begin with (many sports stadiums find themselves predominantly empty despite their large respective sizes). There were many Italian immigrants at the time in what is now southern Somalia, and all of them were Catholics. That was obviously who made up the bulk of the Church's faithful. But again, this argument is just another red herring that is ultimately irrelevant to Wikipedia's aims of appealing to actual sources (in other words, it is, as you would say, "OR").

It is not a "complaint" that the fact that the Tripodi source is not in English is a problem; it's a Wikipedia policy. Wikipedia:PROVEIT#Non-English_sources states that:

"English-language sources are preferable to sources in other languages so that readers can easily verify the content of the article. However, sources in other languages are acceptable where an English equivalent is not available. Where editors translate a direct quotation, they should quote the relevant portion of the original text in a footnote or in the article. Translations published by reliable sources are preferred over translations made by Wikipedia editors."

You, again, have translated that quote yourself; you did not copy it from an English version of the Tripodi book. Furthermore, exceptional claims require exceptional sources. Tripodi's assertion that "there were about 40,000 Somali Catholics due to the work of missionaries in the rural regions of Juba and Shebelle" is obviously an exceptional claim. This is due to the fact that Tripodi is the only one claiming this (thereby making it fringe), and this claim is of course directly contradicted by numerous authoritative sources, including the Diocese of Mogadishu itself.

• You wanted some sources? You got them. Stating that "Catholicism never managed to penetrate the Somali community", much as it may pain you, is indeed fact. It's not "contemporary moslem POVs" or "propaganda", I'm afraid. And it's you that's pushing an outrageous figure (40,000 Somali Catholics), which you gleaned from an off-hand remark in one source and one source alone, thereby making it a fringe theory. A fringe theory that I've already amply demonstrated is contradicted by all the authoritative sources on religion in Somalia, old & recent alike.

• Finally, you removed two reliable sources I added pertaining to the religious situation in contemporary Somalia. For some reason, you deleted a phrase indicating that not only Christian graves, but also both Muslim graves & mosques were desecrated during the civil war. You also removed all reference to the fact that the Italian colonial authorities themselves were complicit in the forced labor that the Catholic Church played a role in abolishing. Unless your goal is to make it seem like only Christians are persecuted in southern Somalia's ongoing civil war or that the Italian colonialists were only liberators and had no part in the slave trade the Church helped abolish despite mountains of evidence to the contrary, that too is unjustifiable. Needless to say, these sources have also been restored. Middayexpress (talk) 12:35, 20 October 2009 (UTC)

BANNED!

As a consequence of investigations and ANI discussions, on June 2015 Middayexpress has been BANNED from all Somalia related articles on en.wikipedia. See [1]

Topic Banned result: User:Middayexpress is hereby topic banned (broadly) from all Somalia-related topics. Additionally, in order to effect a timely halt to any alleged sock or meat puppets that may be editing the pages, administrators may at their discretion adopt a WP:1RR policy on all Somalia-related topics to enforce this ban. This topic ban and 1RR policy shall be in effect until such time as community consensus or arbcom supersede this ANI thread. TomStar81 (Talk) 07:35, 8 June 2015 (UTC)

References

Why this article?

An "overview" makes sense for United States and France and maybe other places with multiple dioceses and ecclesiastical provinces, but why isn't this article part of the diocese article and let it go at that? It makes no sense for a one-diocese country to have two articles on it for RC IMO. I suggest merging and/or deleting this article. Student7 (talk) 16:43, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Agreed. Catholicism barely ever had a presence in the Somali territories, and the faith now has, by the Diocese of Mogadishu's own estimate, only about 100 followers in this decade. So a merge and/or delete does indeed make a lot more sense. Middayexpress (talk) 18:18, 22 October 2009 (UTC)

Desecration of Sufi graves

Desecration of Sufi graves is not an appropriate topic for RC in Somalia article. Sufis are not Catholic. If you wish to argue that the desecration of Catholic graves is not reportable here because the gravesites of other religions were afforded equal opportunity, that is another matter. But reporting Sufis here is off WP:TOPIC. This can be in another article, "Somalia" maybe, or extremists in Somalia, but just not here. It is not germane to this article. Student7 (talk) 14:08, 26 October 2009 (UTC)

Merge from Roman Catholicism in Somaliland

As that article says, there is "no Christianity in Somaliland" and the region's self-declared independence of Somalia remains unrecognized by any country. Roman Catholicism in Somaliland is just not notable. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 04:57, 6 February 2010 (UTC)

No disagreement after 20 days. Will make this merge, per this WP:CON. ^{Carlaude:Talk} 06:00, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

I have moved it to the correct country page; the Somaliland main page. Outback the koala (talk) 07:07, 25 February 2010 (UTC)

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