Talk:Ross Parker (songwriter)

Requested move 04 July 2014

The following discussion is an archived discussion of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on the talk page. Editors desiring to contest the closing decision should consider a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.

The result of the move request was: moved to Ross Parker (songwriter). The consensus is that the songwriter is not the primary topic and nor is the murdered boy, so the disambiguation page will remain at the base title. However, there is a consensus that "songwriter" is a better disambiguation than "composer", hence the move. Jenks24 (talk) 13:18, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

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Ross Parker (composer) → Ross Parker – I started an article for Tony Award winning composer Ross Parker. Someone created an unnecessary disambiguation page for Ross Parker. The other entry is a redirect to an article about a murdered youth. I have no doubt that most people will be looking for the cowriter of We'll Meet Again and not for the voctim of a 2001 crime – Bwaybaby77 (talk) 03:17, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

This is a contested technical request (permalink). Anthony Appleyard (talk) 05:38, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose Over 25,000 people viewed the Murder of Ross Parker article in its highest traffic month, including 7,504 visits in one day That's without it ever being submitted to any main pages for DYKs, and should also be viewed in the context of a media outlets such as BBC failing to give the case anything like an appropriate level of coverage in relation to the crime notability. It's a highly significant case and there is clearly a lot of interest in it, and its long-standing interest too, with that Peak occurring over a decade after the murder occured. Also please note that all the categorisation of Ross Parker the murder victim was deleted by the above editor and replaced with the article about the composer rather than placed at Ross Parker (murder victim) as should have been the case. On the other hand I have not removed any material from anywhere.--Shakehandsman (talk) 03:30, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Update - now that the article for the composer is a little more established I decided to compare the traffic levels for the two articles. The murder victim gets approximately nine times more visits than the composer at present. I don't doubt that this gap will close very slightly once we sort out articles which link simply to Ross Parker instead of directly to the composer, but the figures still show that's not going to make much difference and it's clear that the murder victim will continue to receive the most traffic for the foreseeable future (and therefore should not be the secondary topic).--Shakehandsman (talk) 22:51, 11 July 2014 (UTC)

User talk:Bwaybaby77 moved the murder victim out of the way, and created a stub at base point. This move should be refused and Bwaybaby77 advised not to put in a RM, it won't pass. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:44, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Well my point was that they deleted all the categories by doing so. In fairness they are a new editor here so its understandable that mistakes will be made. Anyway i agree with your points, thanks for your input.--Shakehandsman (talk) 03:49, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Ross Parker is not simply a composer. He won a Tony Award as a performer in a Broadway show (for which he also wrote the English lyrics). He had a small role in Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. He is known for a variety of things, over the course of a long and successful career. When I discovered that there was no article for him (or occasional partner Hughie Charles) I was surprised. Google's Ngrams suggests that the 2001 murder had no noticeable effect. Bwaybaby77 (talk) 03:52, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

If "composer" is the incorrect descriptor for Parker than feel free to change it. Perhaps "songwriter" would be better?--Shakehandsman (talk) 03:56, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I suggest that simply Ross Parker is the correct title. There is no need to have a dismabiguation page at all. Bwaybaby77 (talk) 03:58, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I agree with Bwaybaby77. The "English pianist, composer, lyricist, and actor" is clearly the primary topic. 46.107.65.193 (talk) 05:32, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

SPIdey sense tingling... an IP from Hungary, first contributions to en.wp jumps into a RM about a 1940s English songwriter and a teen murdered in Peterborough? In ictu oculi (talk) 06:28, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

If you are implying that I am the IP editor, I am not. Nor do I know who left that comment. Bwaybaby77 (talk) 14:44, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Goodo In ictu oculi (talk) 16:22, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose - I congratulate both editors for creating the songwriter, improving the race killing article, I have added to the (songwriter), the encyclopedia is better off with both clearly titled. All is now good as is. In ictu oculi (talk) 06:26, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Many thanks for your kind words and efforts. Presumably we still need to add a link from each article to the other in order to aide those who ended up at the wrong one? I note you use the term "songwriter", do you think that would that be an improvement on "composer"?--Shakehandsman (talk) 06:37, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Is it usual to have a disambiguation page in which one of the entries is a redirect? Are murder victims notable? Bwaybaby77 (talk) 14:49, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Yes that seems to occur quite often, although it may be an improvement to link directly to the article itself. Remember, we're disambiguating Ross Parker as a term here rather than directly comparing two people.--Shakehandsman (talk) 15:48, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

As Shakehandsman, yes it does occur, particularly in cases where our rules dictate [Death of ] [Murder of ] for a death article. And yes, (songwriter) is the correct dab here, not (composer), per categories. In ictu oculi (talk) 16:20, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

@In ictu oculi, actually composer would be correct if he does not write the words, we have the relevant categories and articles for songwriters, lyricists and composers. Cheers. --Richhoncho (talk) 07:56, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

Parker does both as well as being an actor and musical performer. He won a Tony Award as part of the cast of a Broadway production. Bwaybaby77 (talk) 14:41, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

• support per all the incoming articles that are about the composer and demonstrate it is clearly the primary subject no matter how temporarily "popular" the prurient interest in a murder may be . -- TRPoD aka The Red Pen of Doom 21:10, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Actually there are twice as many articles linking to the murder as refer to the composer. Using your reasoning the primary topic is the murder. And while the murder article does vary in terms of traffic, I don't think we can say such high levels of interest over a decade after the event can be classed as "temporary". --Shakehandsman (talk) 22:09, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

Many of the links to Ross Parker (the songwriter/actor) are due to the popularity of songs that he wrote or cowrote. Many artists have recorded his songs. We'll Meet Again probably accounts for most of those links. Bwaybaby77 (talk) 22:46, 4 July 2014 (UTC)

I don't think I've seen an "incoming links" argument for some time. The problem with the argument is circular reasoning, and Wikipedia not being self-sourcing. Special:WhatLinksHere/Ross Parker, Special:WhatLinksHere/Ross Parker (composer), Special:WhatLinksHere/Murder of Ross Parker. Also that we do multiply song articles, though anything this old is really notable unlike most of our 2010-2014 song articles. In ictu oculi (talk) 03:43, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

A further problem with the "incoming links" argument above is that it punishes good editing. Incoming links to the "murder of" article mostly avoid the Ross Parker redirect, whereas links to the composer do not, so we're essentially determining the primary topic based on people not checking the page that they're linking to. Amazingly this flawed argument seems to have been accepted by an admin and we now have no main Ross Parker article whatsoever!--Shakehandsman (talk) 04:45, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• NOTE TheRedPenOfDoom (talk · contribs) moved the disambiguation page to Ross Parker (disambiguation) and then someone asked for the redirect Ross Parker to be deleted. I find this a very odd thing to happen, since it appears to be deletion based on there being a sole author, which is impossible with any page with a move history, as all the editors in the moved history would also be editors. -- 65.94.171.126 (talk) 05:23, 5 July 2014 (UTC)
• Comments only. Is Ross Parker a composer or is he a songwriter? The article actually says songwriter.If it is felt that disambiguation is needed it would be nice to get it right. I am not a great fan of PT at the best of times, but I find it a sad comment on life in general that a person who "does things" is not more significant than somebody who has had "something done" to him. So, as a personal preference and without weighting up any policy or guideline I'd much prefer the songwriter's title unadorned. This is still a comment and not a !vote from me. --Richhoncho (talk) 08:44, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Parker was a composer, a lyricist, a performing musician, and an actor. The current title is inadequate, but it is temporary. Bwaybaby77 (talk) 13:05, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support giving the main title to the songwriter. Ross Parker (murder victim) is not notable and never will be per WP:ONEEVENT. It is the murder that is notable here, not the person who was murdered. The musician, on the other hand, has some lasting notability over a long period of time with some iconic wartime songs that are still heard today in documentaries and such. There is no need for a disambiguation page at all, the murder can easily be disambiguated with a hatnote. SpinningSpark 15:12, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

I think you misunderstand the situation somewhat. No one is suggesting that Parker the murder victim is more notable as an individual. What we're comparing is the the murder as an event with that of the composer as an individual. Parker's murder is often compared to the murder of Stephen Lawrence. Wikipedia actually considers that murder as an event to be the primary topic for the term "Stephen Lawrence", despite there being several other Stephen Lawrences who have Wikipedia articles, all of whom had more notable lives than the murder victim.--Shakehandsman (talk) 23:12, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

@Spinningspark: notifies editors of replies. Yes what we have here (or rather in Google Books) is a WP:TWODABS John Quested situation. In ictu oculi (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

• Oppose the move - both the composer/songwriter and the murder are notable. Leave as a disambiguation. Robert McClenon (talk) 21:42, 5 July 2014 (UTC)

Ross Parker the murder victim is not notable by Wikipedia's definition. That's why their article is at Murder of Ross Parker and not at Ross Parker. Bwaybaby77 (talk) 14:39, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

He said "the murder", not "murder victim". And as I explained previously, we do even have cases here of "murder of" articles also being the primary topic for the victim's name, so there's certainly no issue whatsoever with such an article having equal status as a bio.--Shakehandsman (talk) 17:31, 6 July 2014 (UTC)

• Comment. Shouldn't readers of Talk:Murder_of_Ross_Parker have been notified of this discussion? I would have thought this would have been particularly relevant given seeing as the murder victim occupied the "Ross Parker" page for some years.--Shakehandsman (talk) 01:36, 6 July 2014 (UTC)
• Oppose the move - both the composer/songwriter and the murder are indeed notable. Oculi (talk) 11:00, 7 July 2014 (UTC)
• Comment. Been checking through a few sources, and although "Ross Parker" appears to be the common name, con tray to what others have suggested it wasn't actually his legal name. The source states he changed his name to "Clarke Ross-Parker".--Shakehandsman (talk) 02:19, 12 July 2014 (UTC)

Alternative move → (songwriter)

While we're here, in order to make life easier for the closer. Can we just add up supports/opposes/others on (composer) → (songwriter) as the 1 activity for which the bio is best known? In ictu oculi (talk) 02:58, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

• Support - I think most arguments have favoured songwriter ahead of composer and the article content seems to point toward that term. There probably isn't one perfect term to use, but it seems that songwriting is what Parker is best known for. Anyway, thanks for starting this section and thinking ahead.--Shakehandsman (talk) 03:09, 8 July 2014 (UTC)
• Support - Second choice to just Ross Parker. Bwaybaby77 (talk) 03:40, 8 July 2014 (UTC)

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The above discussion is preserved as an archive of a requested move. Please do not modify it. Subsequent comments should be made in a new section on this talk page or in a move review. No further edits should be made to this section.