Talk:Rumi calendar

When did Turkey adopt Gregorian leap year rules?

According to this article, the Rumi calendar "abandoned" the Julian calendar in AH 1333 = 1917 by dropping 13 days, which realigned its months to the Gregorian calendar. However, it also says that Ataturk "replaced" the reformed Rumi calendar by the Gregorian calendar at the end of AH 1341 = 1925. It is clear that Ataturk replaced the Rumi era by the era of the Gregorian calendar. But was 1341/1925 the first time that Gregorian leap year rules were adopted, or were they already adopted as part of the reform of 1333/1917? My guess is the latter, but can someone who can understand the Turkish references cited confirm this? Thanks --Chris Bennett (talk) 21:26, 9 February 2012 (UTC)

According to the Socual Security Administration (SSA) [1], the Rumi years 1333 to 1341 began on March 1, 1917 to 1925, so the Gregorian leap year rules must have been in use. A more complete discussion is at [2], which states that the Gregorian date (meaning month and day), not the Christian date (meaning Gregorian year numbers), was adopted at that time.

On related matters, the "Beynelmilel Saat ve Takvim Hakkındaki Kanunların Kabulü (26 Aralık 1925)" (Adoption of international laws on Clock and Calendar (December 26, 1925)) became effective January 1, 1926 according to [3], which is implied by contemporary newspaper reports, [4], [5]. But [6] states that in Turkey the Gregorian calendar was adopted "1 Jan 1927, by vote of the Majlis on 26 December 1925. But some say 1926, 1927 or 1917". Calendopedia states "18 Dec 1926 was followed by 1 Jan 1927", but its cited source is Claus Tondering who states "Gregorian calendar introduced 1 Jan 1927". Toke Nørby states that the religious Islamic calendar was abolished on 1926.01.01, but also states that the beginning of the year was moved to 1917.03.01 and again less than a year later to 1918.01.01 (contradicted by SSA). [7] states the Gregorian calendar became effective on December 26, 1925. Encyclopedia of the Ottoman Empire (under fez) states "Western (Gregorian) calendar adopted 1926". So sources disagree regarding the date of adoption of the Gregorian calendar.

I have not found a copy of the December 26, 1925 law (only cryptic summaries) so from the above it apparently made only two changes: The beginning of the year was changed from March 1 to January 1, and the Hijri era was changed to the Gregorian era. The months and their days had already been Gregorian since March 1, 1917.

According to the article, the Rumi month names remained unchanged until January 10, 1945 when the months
Teşrin-i Evvel, Teşrin-i Sânî, Kânûn-ı Evvel and Kânûn-ı Sânî were changed to
Ekim, Kasım, Aralık and Ocak, both sets equivalent to
October, November, December, and January.
Robert Harry van Gent describes the Turkish Islamic calendar. — Joe Kress (talk) 21:27, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

Thanks. Your second reference, [8], cites an article which gives a French translation of the 1917 decree at Revue du monde musulman 43 (1921) p. 47. This clearly states that the Western calendar is being adopted, except for start of the year and the use of the Hijri year number. So the Gregorian months and leap year rules were adopted in 1917, but the numbers and the start of the year did not change until Ataturk's reform, whenever that took effect. The current article is wrong, and the SSA is right, about the start of the Rumi year after 1917. (I had assumed the opposite until now because the article cites Turkish sources which I supposed would be more reliable.) So I agree with your conclusion: it is fair to say that Turkey adopted a Gregorian calendar in 1917, in the same sense that the Rumi calendar was a Julian calendar. It remains now to confirm the effective date of the Ataturk decree. -- Chris Bennett (talk) 22:56, 10 February 2012 (UTC)

The cryptic summaries of the December 26, 1925 law basically state that the Hijri and Rumi calendars (Hicri ve Rumi Takvim) were changed to the Gregorian calendar (Miladi Takvim), indicating that the nominative Rumi calendar was in use until 1925, so the error in the article is describing the Rumi calendar as a Julian calendar. It was Julian until February 15, 1917 and Gregorian from March 1, 1917 until the effective date of the 1925 law. The latter must be January 1 of some year given that the beginning of the year was changed to January 1. But January 1, 1926 was only six days after December 26, 1925, so I suspect that January 1, 1927 was the effective date in order to give sufficient time to change printed calendars, etc. Since the law was passed by the Majlis on December 26, 1925, it may have needed further authorization to became effective, such as a signature by some official or printing in some government publication. — Joe Kress (talk) 01:05, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, to be fair, the article does say that the Julian calendar was "abandoned" in 1917, it's just unclear about whether it then became Gregorian or not. As to the Ataturk reform, I'm having the same trouble you are, apparently authoritative sources differ on whether the effective date of the 1925 reform was 1 January 1926 or 1927. I take your point about the practical issues favouring 1927, but 1926 seems to be the more frequently quoted date, and the SSA is a fairly authoritative source, since no doubt they actually have had to deal with it; and who knows how much advance publicity the change got before it was formally enacted? I'll keep on looking for a bit, but I'm tempted to go with 1926, citing the SSA, but footnoting that some sources (e.g. [9] p. 96) say 1927, and see whether anyone can come up with something better. --Chris Bennett (talk) 01:55, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

Well, running some Turkish pages through Google translate seems to show that the law itself mandated 1 January 1926, but the very same pages talk about "since 1927". This page [10] contains what looks like a statement of the decree, but then immediately goes on to say that Muslims and Christians have used a common year since 1927. [11] and [12] are similar. Also this page [13] seems to be saying that the Rumi New Year was moved to 1 January in 1334/1918 after all, but by a separate law (no 615 passed in 1333/1917) than the law which dropped 13 days (no 2851 passed in 1332/1917). --Chris Bennett (talk) 02:28, 11 February 2012 (UTC)

What do the two "30" mean?

A calendar page for November 1, 1895

Would it be conceivable that the two numbers 30, explained with "purpose unclear" indicate the number of days in the current month, according to each calendar? There are also ٢٩ and ٣٠ in similar size for the two upper dates, with گون above them.

Also this calendar sheet contains numbers ٢٩ and ٣٠ (and "jr. 30", probably for jour), seemingly related to each calendar, again with گون preceeding each of them.

--DirkHoffmann (talk) 21:14, 16 September 2020 (UTC)

Above these two is 30 (twice), the number of days in the Julian and Gregorian months; the month (April, Априлий) and day (Thursday, Четвъртъкъ) in Bulgarian 31.143.52.30 (talk) 06:20, 8 April 2023 (UTC)