Talk:Saturn II

S-II stage takeoff thrust

The statement that the first stage would have had the same takeoff thrust (1,000,000 lb) as the S-II stage normally has in space, is probably incorrect and needs better investigation. As the INT-19 section alludes to, it is a fact of rocket physics that an engine has less thrust at sea level (14.7 psia) than in space (vacuum); in essence the atmospheric pressure acts to inhibit the thrust. This is why it talks about modifying the J-2 engine to change the nozzle expansion ratio, in an effort to counteract this. If you just took an off-the-shelf S-II and fired it at sea level without any modification, the thrust would actually be significantly less than 1,000,000 lb. (exactly how much I can't say), and I would guess there would be a chance of it not being able to lift off (thrust less than total vehicle weight.) Just because this number is quoted in Astronautix doesn't necessarily make it so; as several Wikiproject Spaceflight discussions have noted, this is one of those sources where you have to be careful. JustinTime55 (talk) 21:37, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

Justin - I am using the PDF scans of original MSFC 1965-67 studies (Boeing, Martin, and North American), when these are available electronically (scans).

IF you want to do the library work (paper, books) to resolve your question fine (needs investigation) -- that is more valuable to Wikipedia, than being the no work critic.

BTW, I am very aware of Mark Wade's work, and chances for errors. Some of the original NASA and USAF materials are also incorrect or have composition errors (Delta program). The errors were due to the shear complexity and rush to launch of those times. I helped Mark with his Titan section in 1990s. Many of those original sources, that provided that insight are now deceased. Have you noticed how much work that has been marked for past 5 years -- that nobody is working on? User:Beatgr (talk) 22:36, 12 June 2012 (UTC)

I am going to ignore Beatgr's personal attack. I'm getting older myself and respect age as much as the next person, so it pains me to say this, but my experience with him on another article leads me to believe he has gone from a once-valued worker in the aerospace field to a sad, cranky little old man whose best days are behind him. He leaves some messes for others to clean up, and gets defensive when his work is criticized. JustinTime55 (talk) 17:59, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

Astronautix contains information for the sea level version of the J2 (J-2-SL) which is what saturn-II would have used for the lower stage: http://www.astronautix.com/engines/j2sl.htm

Thrust (sl): 729.300 kN (163,953 lbf)

Thrust (vac): 996.70 kN (224,067 lbf)

In comparison the original J-2

Thrust (vac): 1,033.10 kN (232,250 lbf).

When you cluster engines together like that you can loose effective thrust due to interference between engines for complicated reasons. We're also talking about a rocket with two engines types (http://www.astronautix.com/engines/hg3sl.htm) and three configurations. A single set of states is wholly inadequate to deal with that, but unfortunately any attempt to calculate more accurate values runs into original research. :( ANTIcarrot (talk) 15:28, 14 February 2013 (UTC)

Huh? It looks like Wade has made another mistake; that's even less thrust for the J2-SL than the off-the-shelf J2. The point is to get the sea level thrust back up near one million pounds. There is absolutely no way it could get off the ground without either replacing the J-2s with the HG-3-SLs, or else adding solid boosters. Even then, it looks like the non-booster configuration would still have to offload some propellant. I did my best to fix it with the HG-3-SL, and added the Titan booster stages. JustinTime55 (talk) 18:15, 4 November 2015 (UTC)

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