Talk:Science and technology of the Han dynasty/GA1

GA Review

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Hi, I'll be reviewing this interesting article. Will need a few days to give it a good going-over. Sasata (talk) 07:24, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

Take your time; I hope you like it! That is, I hope you enjoy it so much, that you will consider looking at the other Han Dynasty articles I submitted as GAC's.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:56, 4 March 2009 (UTC)

I may just do that, but I'll give other reviewers a chance first :) Sasata (talk) 18:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Six good article criteria:

1. Well written?: ✓ Pass The prose is very well-written. Have requested a few small corrections or clarifications. All concerns dealt with. Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

2. Factually accurate?: ✓ Pass

3. Broad in coverage?: ✓ Pass

4. Neutral point of view?: ✓ Pass

5. Article stability? ✓ Pass

6. Images?: ✓ Pass One question about image permissions, see below. Looks like you've done all you can to get proper permissions. Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

This article is very impressive: written in a scholarly, yet accessible encylopaedic fashion, well-referenced and thorough. I read the article very carefully, and was able to find only a small handful of issues that need corrections or clarifications. The MOS fixes suggested for the references are nit-picky, and not required for GA level, but I'd thought I'd mention them to help the article pass a future FAC. Sasata (talk) 18:29, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Great! I have tried to address your concerns as best I could; as for the image problem, see below (I contacted OTRS months ago, and to follow up, I contacted a volunteer today).--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:30, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I'm happy to promote this article; it meets or exceeds all of the GA criteria. Good luck at FAC! Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Thanks! And I finally got that issue over at OTRS cleared up; the images are good to go.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 00:41, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Ceramics

• Please clarify what "grey" pottery is. Tried to find the answer in both the Chinese ceramics and pottery articles but was unable to do so.

Sure; it is from the type of clay used.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:34, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• It's a bit difficult for me to follow the implied logic behind the advancements in ceramic technology. I think perhaps if it's explicitly stated that increases in firing temperature increase the quality of the resultant pottery (I'm assuming that's correct), it would flow a bit better. Or is the point that as time progressed they were able to make high-quality glazed pottery by using a lower temperature?

I believe that different types of clay, having different ingredients (for example, the glazed pottery included oxidized lead), react differently to a range of different firing temperatures. The renowned archaeologist Wang Zhongshu, who I cited for this, perhaps did not find it necessary to explain this in the most explicit terms (there are space limits to writing published books, after all). I merely mentioned the firing temperatures as a way to demonstrate the temperature ranges that Han furnaces were capable of reaching.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:37, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• ..."with a preferred range of 2850° to 1305°C (2345° to 2381°F) for celadon." Looks like there's an incorrect number in there.

OMG! That's funny; thanks for catching that! After checking with page 42 of Dewar's book again, I have fixed the 2850° C to 1285° C.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:41, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Metallurgy

• "...over the top where the charge of charcoal and pig iron was introduced." The word "charge" has a lot of different meanings, but for the life of me I can't figure out which one is being referred to here. Could you reword or clarify?

The freedictionary.com says (halfway down the page for Dictionary of Collective Nouns and Group Terms, 2008, The Gale Group, Inc.) that a charge is a load, burden, or weight; a quantity of ammunition powder for the firing of a gun; metallic ore to fill a furnace; a mental or moral load. Since pig iron is part of the charge, the word "charge" is an acceptable term for this sentence. I don't know what else I would use.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Good enough for me, I didn't know that specific definition. Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• "...until the end of the Han when the entire arrowhead mas made solely of iron." mas->was

Ah! I'll fix that right away.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:49, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Agriculture

• "which described the pit field system (aotian 凹田)" What does this (i.e., aotian) mean?

??? It's the Chinese characters and translation for English "pit field". Is this a problem?--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:51, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

No problem, just couldn't find the word aotian in my dictionary :) Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• "Twenty seeds were sowed into each pit, which allegedly produced 0.6 L (20 oz) of harvested grain per pit..." Seeds of what plant?

Not sure; the source just said "grain", or cereal, which could be a number of different plants.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Wikilink fallow

Ok, will do.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "...plants were given intesive care..." intensive

Ah! You're good at catching my typos! Unfortunately, I tend to read my own work way too fast, so I miss these.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:54, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Mechanical and hydraulic engineering

• Uses of the waterwheel and clepsydra is the subject heading, but I can't find mention of this word clepsydra mentioned in the text.

A clepsydra is a water clock; the two words are synonymous, but for Wiki users who are unfamiliar with "clepsyrda", I think I will change the title to "waterwheel and water clock". Is that better?--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Good, thanks. Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• Wikilink or define "decorticating"

Done.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:05, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "...location indicated by a specific cardinal or ordinal direction." this statement sent me on a hunt to find out what an ordinal direction was. Could cardinal/ordinal just be left out without losing meaning?

No. Absolutely not. It is important to note that the device could not only detect earthquakes in a cardinal direction (North, South, East, West), but also in all four ordinal directions (northwest, southwest, southeast, northeast). It is also more encyclopedic to say "ordinal" and "cardinal" than just saying "in all eight directions".--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Ok, sounds logical. Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• "...(yet there's many other tomb-brick carvings, murals, and models depicting the winnowing machine)." there's->there are

Thanks; changed that.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "Later, the inventor Ma Jun (fl. 220–265 CE)..." Do not know what fl. means. Approximately?

Kind of; it is floruit, i.e. Latin for flourish, commonly used for historical persons whose birth and death dates are unknown.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:12, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Cool, learned something else today! Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Mathematics and astronomy

• "A preface was added to the text by Zhao Shuang 趙爽 in the 3rd century CE." What is the significance of this?

Because Zhao Shuang is mentioned a few sections down in the "Astronomical theory" subsection, i.e. "Zhao Shaung's 3rd-century commentary in the Zhoubi suanjing describes two astronomical theories: ..." For this, he deserves mentioning.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:14, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "There was also the Nine Chapters on the Mathematical Art (Jiuzhang Suanshu 九章算术), its full title found on two bronze standard measurers dated 179 CE (with speculation that its material existed in earlier books under different titles), and was provided with detailed commentary by Liu Hui (fl. 3rd century CE) in 263 CE." The underlined segment does not seem to fit grammatically.

I placed a semicolon in there and an extra "was" to fix the sentence.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "It contains problems and solutions for ... excess and deficiency, and others." The construction seems slightly awkward to me.

Really? Ok, I got rid of "and others"...hopefully it sounds better now.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Good. Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

• Appoximations of pi (π) -> approximations

??? Are you talking about a subsection title?--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:19, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Yes, it's a subsection heading under "Mathematics and astronomy". Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Astronomical observations

• "...Geng Shouchang (耿壽昌) provided his armillary sphere with an equatorial ring..." wikilink or define armillary sphere (I know it's linked further above in a different section, but again here would be helpful).

Hmm. I think others (i.e. in a later FAC review) might raise the issue of overlinking certain words. If you insist, I will link it here as well, but only for this one instance.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:21, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Nope, I don't insist, merely suggest :) Sasata (talk) 00:25, 7 March 2009 (UTC)

Structural engineering and public works

• "...as seen in artistic models of buildings and in actual surviving tile pieces."

Yeah, no need for emphasis there, lol. Fixed it.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:23, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "The following pictures of ceramic model towers come from tombs of the Han Dynasty:" Reword so it sounds more like the models came from the tombs, not the pictures. Same thing for the next picture set.

Hahaha! Dear Lord, that is funny. Thanks for pointing this out.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:24, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• I was wondering if the image galleries violate the MOS, where it states "Images in a gallery should be carefully selected, avoiding similar or repetitive images, unless a point of contrast or comparison is being made.", especially since two captions are identical. Personally, I think the galleries are fine (and don't stick out obtrusively in an article this size), but am warning that you may have to justify them at FAC.

I will have no problem justifying them there; they clearly represent what is described in that section and each one is unique, despite two having the same description (that should be a minor concern).--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "...and had two circulatory qi channels (任督二脉)[181]" Missing a period.

Fixed it.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "...an idea which led Hu Sihui (fl. 1314–1330 CE) to later diagnose beriberi disease with a diet rich in Vitamin B1.[185]" This doesn't sound right; how about "... an idea which led Hu Sihui (fl. 1314–1330 CE) to prescribe a diet rich in Vitamin B1 as a treatment for berberi?"

That does sound better; I will use your sentence structure instead.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 21:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

References

• Ref #150 has comma before quotes, unlike #157. #158 has no comma. Is "Tower Model" in #159 the same as "Pleasure Tower Model"? Why do #151 and #160 have no title?

If you look down at the references section, you can see that "Pleasure Tower Model" and "Tower Model" are two different chapters in the same book. I have fixed the mistakes you have raised here.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 19:07, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Some refs have an ampersand & to indicate discontinuous page numbers, others don't. Eg., compare Ref#226 and #212

Fixed that.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 19:09, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Ref McClain, Ernest G. and Ming Shui Hung. (1979); Nishijima, Sadao. (1986); Straffin, Philip D (1998) need an ndash for the page range.

Done.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 19:11, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Loewe, Michael. (1968) missing an ISBN, as are the Needham books.

Oops! Added those.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 19:27, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• Some final author names end in a period, others don't. (see the Needham books for an example).

Fixed.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 19:33, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

Images and captions

• Some captions end with periods, some don't.

• "...its sliding shutter allows for adjustments in the direction and brightness in rays of light while it also traps smoke within the body, thus considered an anti-pollutant design" The phrase "thus considered' makes it sound awkward to me, perhaps remove it?

• Regarding the image W_Han_pottery_utensils.JPG (and the other museum pics), I'm no expert on image copyright on Wikipedia, but I seem to recall that cases like these require an OTRS validation or something like that. Has this been done?

It's been more than half a year since I've confirmed this with OTRS through email (I had Gary Lee Todd personally email them); if there is any problem with this, it is a problem from their end, not mine. I will contact a volunteer to see if this can be cleared up as soon as possible.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

I have contacted User:Bapti over there at Wikimedia Commons; he is an OTRS volunteer.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 20:22, 6 March 2009 (UTC)

• "An actual Western Han (202 BCE – 9 CE) bronzedoor knocker..."

• "... Halley's comet in 12 BCE, seen here in its 1986 reappearance of 1986"

• "...provide valuable information not only on astronomy and mythology, but also on Han-era medicine." NPOV

As for the rest of these, they are fixed.--Pericles of Athens^Talk 18:58, 6 March 2009 (UTC)