Talk:September 2024 Lebanon strikes/Archive 1

Archive 1

Article title

While the strikes did happen in both Israel and Lebanon, it appears the damage is totally asymmetric. All of the deaths appear to be in Lebanon. This looks less like cross-border fire and more like a large-scale attack by Israel.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:48, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

I don't disagree, but it's also important to mention that the IDF is totally indiscriminate (ie openly targeting civilians) and their military censors hide a lot. So it's unclear just how much damage israel has incurred on the other end as they don't let anyone report on it. 99.237.230.117 (talk) 18:17, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Please provide sources that say what you wrote above.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 20:02, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

No need, WP:ARBECR applies as this is within the Arab-Israeli conflict topic area, so the IP should just restrict themselves to edit requests which their previous message clearly isn't. Nil Einne (talk) 20:07, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Hezbollah Casualties vs Civil Casualties

As of now, Hezbollah only published the identity of a single member. The vast majority of the killed are civils. In some attacks, entire families were killed. InfiniteValrath (talk) 21:04, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Please keep in mind that it's higly unlikely that Hezbollah would report their true losses, and thereby admit how hard Israel hit them. It is way easier to present such losses as "civilian casualties". — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 21:28, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

That may well be true but at the moment we have no way of knowing how many civilians vs. militants were killed and it is highly likely that given the current death toll of nearly 500, at least hundreds of civilians were killed and injured. Of course we are limited to the numbers and details published by reliable sources. Nythar (💬-🍀) 21:58, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, indeed. There is no denial that hundreds of civilians were killed and injured, but it would be ludicrous to accept the narrative of Hezbollah that they suffered only one casualty, while all the others are civilians. As you mentioned, only reliable sources can make those numbers more clearer, in days to come. — Sundostund mppria ^{(talk / contribs)} 22:42, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Extended-confirmed-protected edit request on 24 September 2024

192.15.119.255 (talk) 14:08, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

 Not done I'll mark this as answered. If you are the one who opened this discussion, you can open a new one and you must state what changes you want made. For example, "Change 1,835 injuries to 1,900. Source: example.com". The page Wikipedia:Edit requests has more information. FunLater (talk) 14:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Name of operation in Hebrew

The formal name of the operation is Northern Arrows, should that include a Hebrew translation? 70.26.38.100 (talk) 14:23, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Sure, why not? I would prefer putting it in a note (similar to 2023 Hamas-led attack on Israel) to avoid it cluttering the page. Do you have a source that states the official name in Hebrew? FunLater (talk) 14:29, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

The announced name is "חיצי הצפון" and the transliteration (mine) is "Chitzei HaTzafun" --Scharb (talk) 14:56, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Added. FunLater (talk) 15:08, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Problematic infobox

The infobox currently lists all deaths and injuries in Lebanon on the side of Hezbollah, which is problematic for obvious reasons (we don't know how many of those killed were civilians or militants). Nythar (💬-🍀) 21:46, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

If all the casualties were in Lebanon, maybe this infobox isn't even the best infobox to use. Template:Infobox military operation would be a better choice.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 23:14, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Good suggestion, VR. Lewisguile (talk) 13:04, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Wikivoice for Israeli claims

Please don't use wikivoice for Israeli claims that are not independently confirmed.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 17:45, 23 September 2024 (UTC)

Agreed. Lewisguile (talk) 13:03, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Most of these have now been removed, condensed or reworded. See what you think. Lewisguile (talk) 14:48, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

Add French FM reaction to the Reactions>International section

Something like:

• France: France's FM, Jean-Noël Barrot, called for an emergency meeting of the UN Security Council, stating: "I’m thinking of the men and women in uniform in Lebanon and the French contingent there. I’m thinking of the Lebanese people as Israeli strikes have just killed hundreds of civilians, including dozens of children. These strikes conducted on both sides of the blue line, and in the region more broadly, must immediately end."

Bitspectator ⛩️ 01:05, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

It appears this has already been added in slightly condensed language. Thanks. Lewisguile (talk) 14:55, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

References

Israel's aims in the lede

@Galamore: I moved this paragraph into the Reactions section because its inclusion in the lede is not neutral. While it is fair to include an attacker's operational aims, the paragraph contained this, which has nothing to do with operational aims: Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu addressed the Lebanese people, stating, "Israel's war is not with you, it's with Hezbollah. For too long, Hezbollah has been using you as human shields." Please at least remove this sentence from the lede. Nythar (💬-🍀) 07:15, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

I do not understand why we need to include Netanyahu's claim of human shields in the lede. It isn't backed by reliable sources, isn't related to his operational aims, and just forces an unnecessary POV into the lede. Nythar (💬-🍀) 07:25, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

The lead of the article on the Israel-Hamas war outlines Hamas's stated motives for its attack on Israel: "Hamas said its attack was in response to Israel's continued occupation, the blockade of Gaza, settlement expansion, disregard for international law, alleged threats to the Al-Aqsa Mosque, and the general plight of Palestinians." The description of stated aims can be found in many articles similar to this.

In any case, this is an article about a military operation launched by a country. It makes perfect sense to explain what a country aims to achieve in such an operation in the lead of an article describing it. ABHammad (talk) 07:52, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Claims of human shield use are not relevant to the IDF's motives for the attacks. I very much doubt anyone here thinks the IDF conducted the airstrikes because of human shields. This feels like Wikipedia is justifying the civilian death toll in the lede; I see no good reason why those claims should remain there. So while I do agree that their motives should be included in the lede, some parts of the lede unnecessarily push a POV. Nythar (💬-🍀) 07:57, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

The issue of human shields is indeed a significant one. For very long Hezbollah has used civilian areas to launch attacks and is deeply embedded in Shia villages in the south of Lebanon. They also try to establish a presence in Christian villages, and there have been multiple instances where locals have fought back and expelled them ( https://english.elpais.com/international/2024-06-17/the-lebanese-christian-village-on-the-border-with-israel-that-escapes-the-shelling-this-is-safer-than-beirut.html, https://www.iranintl.com/en/202403274605, https://www.economist.com/middle-east-and-africa/2024/04/25/the-middle-east-has-a-militia-problem,). So since its true, if its also mentioned by sources as part of statements I think we should mention it too. EnfantDeLaVille (talk) 08:08, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

@Nythar, the IDF did not conduct the strikes specifically because of human shields, but it did ask people to leave their villages during the attacks because Hezbollah uses homes to store weapons and launch them at Israel. So mentioning this context is important when describing the operational aims. Galamore (talk) 08:13, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Why should Israel's statements be mentioned in the lead alone? That seems like UNDUE. Especially at a time, when Hezbollah's aims are not just not mentioned in the lead, they are repeatedly being removed from the article.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 13:38, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

We have video evidence supporting Israel's claim that missile silos were disguised as civilian houses. Civilian houses don't have secondary explosions like an ablaze fireworks factory --Scharb (talk) 14:35, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

That's not a reliable source.VR _{(Please ping on reply)} 19:39, 24 September 2024 (UTC)

Yes, we could use a better source, but the video is rather conclusive. Having said that, the idea that Hamas, Hezbollah, et al, have always used civilians and their schools, hospitals and homes as human shields and as a means to hide their terrorist activities should at this late date be nothing amazing. They are completely complicit in the deaths of civilians. If a sniper was shooting at people from inside a "civilian" home, I can't get too upset if that "civilian" home gets caught up in the crossfire – esp since the situation begs the question: Did the homeowner lend support, moral or otherwise, to the sniper? -- Gwillhickers (talk) 17:30, 25 September 2024 (UTC)

We don't need to get into a discussion of anyone's views here, so I'd advise we move back onto the topic of RSes and consensus. This is WP:NOTAFORUM.

If RSes say that this is a crucial part of the conflict--enough to go in the lede--then please cite them and we can include it in a way that's WP:DUE. Otherwise, it shouldn't go into the lede. Lewisguile (talk) 17:53, 25 September 2024 (UTC)